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ksun said:
Toronto always thinks too small and Dundas Square epitomizes that mindset. Dundas Square often appears busy and stuff because people don't really have a better public square to go, not because the square itself is such a success. Even cities with 300,000 people in France and Spain have larger and better public squares than Dundas Square.
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There's a slightly larger square a block or two to the west in front of one of our civic buildings.

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Yet I think the criticism is valid. Even NPS is 'appreciated' more for its architectural/design statement than it is for its accessibility or appeal, even after the renovations. It does have the rather bland whiff of 'Ontario civic space' all over it.

Regardless, for a city of Toronto's size the stature and quality of our public spaces is largely wanting. There have definitely been some improvements of late (Queen's Quay for example) and some interesting plans in the works (Berczy Park). These spaces will definitely help in inching us closer to the level of other cities (even many smaller ones).
 
I was never really happy with the design of Yonge Dundas Square, especially since it was always conceived of, in part, as a backdrop for billboards. Having said that, I am often pleasantly surprised at how well used the space often is, and how it's a lively spot on a summer evening. I take a glass half full approach to it. The City finally accomplished something ambitious (the expropriation of a city block to create the square), and despite a half-assed design managed to create an open space that largely succeeds at what it set out to do. Now that the square exists (it is easy to forget that, for awhile, that was no certainty) we can always at some point proceed with Yonge Dundas Square 2.0.

Toronto has inexplicably ignored its public spaces (I actually think NPS is a fine exception from a design perspective, but in practice the City treats it like sh*t), but appears to be waking up on that front. That's why I am hopeful that Yonge Dundas Square, as a work in progress, is (will be) headed in the right direction.
 
interchange42 said:
There's a slightly larger square a block or two to the west in front of one of our civic buildings.

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True, yet on most days that square is largely empty (admittedly the skate rink is well used in the winter). What's not to like about a cold square completely made of concrete with nothing attractive to it? The Washington Square Park is 20% smaller yet is much better utilized. NPS to me feels extremely cold and uninviting. Except for the few events the city deliberately holds there, I rarely seem people voluntarily gather there like those real urban square elsewhere.

Skeezix said:
I was never really happy with the design of Yonge Dundas Square, especially since it was always conceived of, in part, as a backdrop for billboards. Having said that, I am often pleasantly surprised at how well used the space often is, and how it's a lively spot on a summer evening. I take a glass half full approach to it. The City finally accomplished something ambitious (the expropriation of a city block to create the square), and despite a half-assed design managed to create an open space that largely succeeds at what it set out to do. Now that the square exists (it is easy to forget that, for awhile, that was no certainty) we can always at some point proceed with Yonge Dundas Square 2.0.

Toronto has inexplicably ignored its public spaces (I actually think NPS is a fine exception from a design perspective, but in practice the City treats it like sh*t), but appears to be waking up on that front. That's why I am hopeful that Yonge Dundas Square, as a work in progress, is (will be) headed in the right direction.
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Yes, it is indeed better than nothing and it serves a purpose - I love it when it is all noisy and crowded in the summer, but I don't know how to improve it when it is already that small. There is only this much you can do on this laughably tiny piece of land. Maybe we should demolish the ugly building across Dundas in order to expand it. That will triple the size.

Just to show how "small" Dundas Square is - Place Bellecour in Lyon, France, a much smaller city (let's not bother comparing with Paris or anything larger), is 15 times its size. That's what Toronto should aim for.

I like the Dundas Square 2.0 idea as we desperately need more public squares, but where? An how is that possible considering all our "low rise houses" in the core are so sacred and untouchable. I just don't want another tiny and unattractive concrete square with nothing interesting just so that on paper we have more squares - just like all those useless mini-parkettes scattered around downtown.
 
A public square on Queen West would be a good idea for that parking lot across from the Black Bull (Soho ST.). The area is more of a destination than Yonge/Dundas which is more of a transit hub these days than anything else.
 
Nathan Phillips Square needs to have more of its renovations actually carried out, including better connections to Queen Street, and far better connections to Bay.

Yonge-Dundas Square needs better walls facing it on many of the buildings that ring the square, and much of the ad signage needs upgrading, but I don't think it needs to be bigger. Nathan Phillips Square does fill the role of BIG SQUARE when one is needed downtown. The more people you cram in for an event, the less important it is for the immediate surroundings to be programmed, and I think it's good to have one more-neutral, non-commercial space.

What we could use, as far as I'm concerned, are more small and mid-sized squares like Yonge-Dundas Square, in various sites around town: more intimate spaces are more inviting to me than vastly huge ones. So we want to create these public spaces, but 1) we have to be willing (with park cash-in-lieu funds) to buy back some of the land they'd be built on, and 2) it's just as important to talk about what will surround them so that they are appropriately animated in as many situations and as many times of day as possible.

I was not in favour of using the whole site at One Bloor East to be used for a square, which Chris Hume stumped for when he saw it with the earlier buildings torn down, as the backdrop of surrounding buildings would have been ugly. (Who wants a public square when the edges of the square are hideous? None of the buildings surrounding that site are built to take advantage of a square there (since there isn't one), and while The One could theoretically have been designed to favour the square were there one, the buildings to the south (which are awful) could de redevelopment candidates, but the Xerox Tower and Two Bloor East would be tough ones to fix. I'm glad enough, in the meantime, that we're getting something of such quality on the site instead of a square there… but Bloor-Yonge could use a public space.

So, I would like to see some buildings designed that do incorporate squares at important corners. I was hoping the MEC design on Queen would do that (but it won't), and I was hoping that some small addition would be made to the east side of the Aria podium at Bay and Wellesley so that its blank wall facing the new park wouldn't be so horrible, but it's not assured that anything will happen there with that yet. We have some architecturally pleasant gland plazas around some of the bank towers in the core, but those aren't squares. The spiral ramp park at Queens Quay and York could be a square if it's planned well (I'm not expecting something great there, just hoping for something good).

Maybe the green spaces at The Well, at 88 Queen East, the refurbished Barbara Ann Scott Park, and at 33 Gerrard will be good enough to be considered public squares… who knows, but we probably need one really successful one to trigger some more thinking about squares in this city.

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interchange42 said:
Yonge-Dundas Square needs better walls facing it on many of the buildings that ring the square, and much of the ad signage needs upgrading
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Maintaining my glass-half-full approach, I think of some of the key buildings surrounding the square are relatively disposable (Metropolis (or whatever you call yourself this month), Yonge/Dundas portion of Eaton Centre and CityTV - I'm looking at you). As such, I remain hopeful that there will be opportunities (ideally in the not-too-far-distant future) for better design and architecture (including a redevelopment of the Hakim/nameless office building site on the east side of the square). The old bank of Nova Scotia (which is a Forever 21 this month, I think) and the buildings on the south side of the square do the square justice, I believe, despite the best efforts of the HNR Dundas Square tower to ruin things. The City needs to get serious about how to encourage, and more importantly how to achieve, better design, and for this square, the first test might come whenever it is that they expand the nearby Bay Atrium.
 
Tewder said:
A public square on Queen West would be a good idea for that parking lot across from the Black Bull (Soho ST.). The area is more of a destination than Yonge/Dundas which is more of a transit hub these days than anything else.
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I won't speak to the relative desirability of the Queen/Soho lot versus Yonge Dundas Square (especially since the Queen/Soho lot is well on its way to becoming a MEC, IIRC, so the point is moot), but "transit hub" is not the word I would use to describe Yonge Dundas - that's not my experience.
 
Skeezix said:
I won't speak to the relative desirability of the Queen/Soho lot versus Yonge Dundas Square (especially since the Queen/Soho lot is well on its way to becoming a MEC, IIRC, so the point is moot), but "transit hub" is not the word I would use to describe Yonge Dundas - that's not my experience.
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Agree, Since when Yonge/Dundas is a transit hub? Since when one subway stop and a streetcar constitute a transit hub? that title belongs to Yonge/Bloor. Y/D is practically the heart of the city. It is the only intersection where it feels like a vibrant city of 6 million people most of the time. Queen/Soho still has to do a lot to catch up. It has some shops and what?
 
Skeezix said:
I won't speak to the relative desirability of the Queen/Soho lot versus Yonge Dundas Square (especially since the Queen/Soho lot is well on its way to becoming a MEC, IIRC, so the point is moot), but "transit hub" is not the word I would use to describe Yonge Dundas - that's not my experience.
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Fair enough. My main point is that Queen West would seem like a great candidate for a public square. It is a destination where people come to just hang out (sure to shop a little and so on too). I suppose it's a moot point if the lot is slated for development. Too bad though.
 
The Eaton Centre forms the western edge of Dundas Square. This is a pertinent discussion, surely. You can be forgiven for not realizing this as the mall doesn't seem to realize this either.
 
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