Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[rbt]

Because the TTC is the pinnacle of getting things done quickly and painlessly...

Both agencies suck at that. Some of Metrolinx's mid-sized projects (Davenport rail-rail grade separation, Burlington station, Union Train shed, ...) run years late.

Metrolinx also has a bad habit of refusing to commit to running service on day #1. It's largely because they don't seem to know whether they can or not. Is another project required first? Did we forget to widen a bridge somewhere? Nobody knows until its staring them in the face.


TTC regularly runs late and over budget but they don't artificially keep scope limited and miss stuff during planning as a result. When they commit to X minute frequencies after construction, it almost always happens the day the contractor leaves.

I'm not a fan of piecemeal upgrades. If we widen this bridge we can run half an extra train; fine, but what's actually required to meet McGuinty's 30 minute frequency promise for all lines? It's been 10 years and they still don't seem to know that; let alone how to hit 15 minute RER frequencies.

 

[David Brake]

I would love to see a map done in this style but with the East and West extensions

Well, there is a lot in flux at the moment with the extensions - particularly the West one. Residents in the public consultation seemed to prefer a Bus Rapid Transit option (which they were promised would be considered), and I am working on a story at the moment about the TTC's expressed desire to examine linking the Crosstown W with the Finch LRT via the airport (and to finish the Crosstown E and W by 2021).

What would you all think of joining Crosstown W and Finch? What route would you think would work?

 

[Steve X]

Well, there is a lot in flux at the moment with the extensions - particularly the West one. Residents in the public consultation seemed to prefer a Bus Rapid Transit option (which they were promised would be considered), and I am working on a story at the moment about the TTC's expressed desire to examine linking the Crosstown W with the Finch LRT via the airport (and to finish the Crosstown E and W by 2021).

What would you all think of joining Crosstown W and Finch? What route would you think would work?

TTC doesn't seem to handle long lines properly. A delay on any part of the line would result in a brief hold on the entire line. Then if they have to shutdown a portion of the line, the entire schedule is affected. All the unscheduled crew changes and short turns would occur to get the operators back to their relief points on time.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

TTC doesn't seem to handle long lines properly. A delay on any part of the line would result in a brief hold on the entire line. Then if they have to shutdown a portion of the line, the entire schedule is affected. All the unscheduled crew changes and short turns would occur to get the operators back to their relief points on time.

It's not a ttc problem. Everywhere long lines are a nightmare to manage. It's why our bus routes split at Yonge. Given how different the ridership profiles of Eglinton and Finch are, I'd recommend against making them a single line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This audit report was a farce if you read it. It compared the actual cost of a P3 to a government managed project. They assumed no cost overruns, increased union costs vs private operator, etc, etc, etc. The auditor general said that in Ontario there is no imperial evidence on this...but we know that is not the case.

A DBFM will of course be better on budget for a gov't run project. No implied profit and a lower financing cost. Of course the benefit to sending it to a private operator is fixing the maintenance, no cost overruns, and a timely completion of the project if the contract is worded correctly. Look at ion in Waterloo vs St Clair.

People need to stop comparing projects to St. Clair. That project had so much community interference and changes of scope that any comparisons to St. Clair are nonsensical. Ion's LRT, and anything else, would be delayed and over budget if that project scope was modified and legal efforts were put in place to stop construction.

 

[Red October]

Seriously the "problems" with St. Clair are waaaaaayyyyy overblown.

 

[WislaHD]

What would you all think of joining Crosstown W and Finch? What route would you think would work?

We've had lengthy discussion on this topic, either in this, the Finch West or the Transit Fantasy Maps thread. I wish I knew which pages, because people posted rather detailed route options. Would be nice to review them again.

Seriously the "problems" with St. Clair are waaaaaayyyyy overblown.

I used it for the first time in ages the other week. It was an exceptional experience compared to most other transit in Toronto. I don't know why anyone would complain about it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

By the way, he original scope of the St. Clair ROW came in approximately as budgeted, if I recall correctly. That's commendable considering all the crap the TTC had to put up with from the community and Hydro. It was all the stuff that was added on to the project by Councillors that made it go "over budget"

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We've had lengthy discussion on this topic, either in this, the Finch West or the Transit Fantasy Maps thread. I wish I knew which pages, because people posted rather detailed route options. Would be nice to review them again.

It just hit me that a Finch-Eglinton LRT would be a resurrection of the Etobickoe RT from the 70s (SRTs lost cousin)

 

[Voltz]

If the City can build streetcar tracks, roads and bridges. then they can build these LRT's.

Metrolinx would just waste two years with some needlessly over bureaucratic P3 bid with Infastructure Ontario for something that is not more complex than what we are already building.

That delay will guarantee the cancellation of these lines, since the political support will wane, and some other plan will pop up in the next election.

And the Crosstown East is supposed to be funded with city money that was meant for the Scarborough Subway, and the tax increase for that money has already been put in place.

 

[WislaHD]

It just hit me that a Finch-Eglinton LRT would be a resurrection of the Etobickoe RT from the 70s (SRTs lost cousin)

Having read Ed Levy's book, it has become evident that all our transit plans are rehashes of things that were proposed decades before.

Only 'new' idea that I can think of is a subway under Don Mills.

 

[nfitz]

It just hit me that a Finch-Eglinton LRT would be a resurrection of the Etobickoe RT from the 70s (SRTs lost cousin)

Other than there isn't a single piece of shared alignment ... I thought the Etobicoke RT was up the hydro alignment near Kipling north of the 401, a short spur into Pearson, and then along the , then along the Finch Hydro alignment. I don't think any of it was on Eglinton, Finch, or any of the proposed Eglinton LRT alignments into Pearson.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Other than there isn't a single piece of shared alignment ... I thought the Etobicoke RT was up the hydro alignment near Kipling north of the 401, a short spur into Pearson, and then along the , then along the Finch Hydro alignment. I don't think any of it was on Eglinton, Finch, or any of the proposed Eglinton LRT alignments into Pearson.

I meant it's similar in spirit. Etobockoe RT was a north/south connection between Finch West, Airport and Bloor. This new proposal is north/south connection between Airport, Finch West and Eglinton. Both proposals accomplish more or less the same thing.

 

[Palma]

We've had lengthy discussion on this topic, either in this, the Finch West or the Transit Fantasy Maps thread. I wish I knew which pages, because people posted rather detailed route options. Would be nice to review them again.



I used it for the first time in ages the other week. It was an exceptional experience compared to most other transit in Toronto. I don't know why anyone would complain about it.

its the car drivers and the issue with left-hand turns and how long it takes at a stop due to having the u-turns, etc, etc

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Having read Ed Levy's book, it has become evident that all our transit plans are rehashes of things that were proposed decades before.

Only 'new' idea that I can think of is a subway under Don Mills.

Our plans are very much a rehashing of this proposal from 1969. Modes may have changed, and alignments slightly shifted, but overall very similar.

The above proposal called for a central underground subway on Eglinton, running underground from Mt Dennis to Laird. I know at least one permutation of this proposal called for a streetcar in exclusive right-of-way to be built from Laird to Kennedy Station, just like we're getting today. West of Mt Dennis, it would've been an allen-expressway style subway in ROW. Very similar to what we're getting today, with light rail running at 30 kph speeds (same as subway).

The Finch ICRT system shown is similar in spirit to the Finch West LRT, and it's connection to the airport and Eglinton Crosstown is similar to what's being proposed today.

The ICRT system shown in Scarborough is remarkably similar in spirt to the Crosstown East. Incredible considering that Scarborough Centre wasn't a thing, and Scarborough was largely undeveloped back then

And of course, they wanted to bring the Relief Line to Don Mills. You can even see that they identified a Relief Line extension to Jane Street, which is something City Planning is apparently examining to deal with University capacity issues.