Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[gweed123]

Summerhill would be a good start. We'd have to look at creating other nodes.

That said, not everybody is heading downtown. And not everybody needs to go to Union. They do so today because of the current network configuration and fare rules. How many people would get off at Bloor, Danforth, Sheppard West (in the future) or Kennedy if we had integrated fares? Or at Agincourt if the Sheppard line reached there and we had integrated fares?

Also, more frequent service with greater service availability throughout the day might actually smooth out demand.

There's a lot of things we could do to manage this demand. We shouldn't be making excuses to not even attempt these changes.

Exactly. In fact, there are many locations within Toronto that could be some pretty major transit hubs if properly integrated. The 3 that immediately come to mind for me are Agincourt (Crosstown GO, Stouffville GO, Sheppard transit), Dundas West (Milton GO, Georgetown GO, B-D Subway, possible DRL), and Eglinton-Black Creek (Georgetown GO, Barrie GO, Eglinton LRT, possible DRL west, Jane LRT).

And of course with each of these hubs would hopefully come increased density surrounding them, be they office or residential.

 

[nfitz]

Sure. But there's the issue of value here. Originally, Transfer City called for 3 multi-billion dollar LRT lines to Malvern.

Your grossly exaggerating here. And none were more than $1-billion, except perhaps for the SRT extension.

And now we've got a $12-billion project instead ... which goes no closer to Malvern that the Scarborough Centre?

 

[gweed123]

Just two notes:

1) It is not easy (if possible at all) to make room for the 5 min at peak / 15 off peak frequency on each of the GO lines radiating from Union. The train corridor may be wide enough to sustain a very frequent service, but the Union station is not built with that kind of passenger volume in mind. In particular, the stairwells are very narrow compared to the platform size. Widening them, or adding more stairwells to the existing structure might be difficult. Also, the station space is organized to emphasise retail, which is perfectly fine for the intercity + commuter hub, but won't work well for the central rapid-transit hub as it will get way too crowded. For the latter situation, you need passenger flows moving in and out very quickly, preferably short distances.

In fact, the Lakeshore and the Brampton / Airport GO services, the primary candidates for electrification and ehnancement, might consume much of the potential expansion room at Union.

Doesn't the Union redesign incoporate a lot of the needs for electrification? It was my understanding that it did.

2) Even if it was possible to implement the above 5 / 15 GO network, it would be very Union-centric. It is not uncommon for cities of Toronto size, or even larger, to have most or all of their rapid transit lines converging in the city centre. But usually they have multiple interchange stations within (or near) the city centre, rather than a single hub for all lines and all transfers. That would become the case in Toronto (except for Bloor subway).

Addressed in post above.

 

[gweed123]

Just two notes:

1) It is not easy (if possible at all) to make room for the 5 min at peak / 15 off peak frequency on each of the GO lines radiating from Union. The train corridor may be wide enough to sustain a very frequent service, but the Union station is not built with that kind of passenger volume in mind. In particular, the stairwells are very narrow compared to the platform size. Widening them, or adding more stairwells to the existing structure might be difficult. Also, the station space is organized to emphasise retail, which is perfectly fine for the intercity + commuter hub, but won't work well for the central rapid-transit hub as it will get way too crowded. For the latter situation, you need passenger flows moving in and out very quickly, preferably short distances.

In fact, the Lakeshore and the Brampton / Airport GO services, the primary candidates for electrification and ehnancement, might consume much of the potential expansion room at Union.

Doesn't the Union redesign incoporate a lot of the needs for electrification? It was my understanding that it did.

2) Even if it was possible to implement the above 5 / 15 GO network, it would be very Union-centric. It is not uncommon for cities of Toronto size, or even larger, to have most or all of their rapid transit lines converging in the city centre. But usually they have multiple interchange stations within (or near) the city centre, rather than a single hub for all lines and all transfers. That would become the case in Toronto (except for Bloor subway).

Addressed in post above.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think they need to come under a single authority, I just think they need to come under a unified and consistent fare structure. The back ends can still be separate, but as long as the user doesn't feel like they're switching systems (have to pay a double fare, etc), then I see no reason to create a single massive transit agency.

Spoken like a planning professional. As a citizen on the other hand, I see no hope at all for a unified fare structure and coordinated service unless both networks are under one authority. Such is the way Toronto works.

Also, beyond that, an agency that control both the subway network and the GO rail network would probably focus on the long and medium-haul issues facing this city and region. This frees up the cities to deal with local transit and keeps various local issues (funding for example) from impacting the whole regional network. No silly tantrums about closing down a stubway, just because a mayor didn't get provincial funding, would be allowed.

Personally, I really do see LRT in a different league from subways and heavy rail. Transit City was really an upgrade to the bus routes on those corridors. It's biggest benefit (speed) came from increased stop spacing and a dedicated lane. Not from the technology being used per se (since most of TC wasn't grade separated). In any event, I see the management of LRT lines (at least the ones at-grade) as not all that removed in complication from the existing streetcar lines. So the city would be fully able to build, manage and even fund the LRT network by itself.

Heck, putting the subway and Go networks under one roof might actually promote regional coherence for once. Something even Metrolinx basically sucks at, at the moment. It's a crazy idea I know.

 

[kEiThZ]

Absolutely. Local transit is certainly important but with a proper long-haul grid, local transit can be handled relatively effectively by buses. The problems we have with local transit are mostly due to having an inadequate grid, forcing local routes to cover long distances.

Exactly. But it's even more messed up than that. What's our solution for long bus rides arising from the lack of an adequate long-haul network?

Long tram rides! Yes!

And the sales pitch was that riders would save 10-15 mins off their existing 90-120 min commutes. How ambitious.

Fixing/Upgrading the GO train network and integrating fares and service would do more for 416 residents than Transfer City would have....particularly given the fact that most of the riders of those LRT lines were bound for the subway network and the city's core anyway.

 

[kEiThZ]

Your grossly exaggerating here. And none were more than $1-billion, except perhaps for the SRT extension.

And now we've got a $12-billion project instead ... which goes no closer to Malvern that the Scarborough Centre?

Sheppard approached a billion by the end and it wouldn't even touch Dean Park. The SRT was a billion and barely touched the edge of Malvern forcing a major re-routing of bus routes and actually worsening travel for anybody who was travelling inside northern Scarborough. I am willing to bet that Morningside would easily have been a billion given the bridge needed, the diversion into UTSC, etc.

I'm not saying the mammoth Scarborough-Eglinton line is infinitely better. But let's not pretend that an SRT that ends at Progress (a mere 7-8 min bus ride from McCowan) was some kind of great panacea for Malvern. At least it saves a transfer for a lot of people. In reality, a GO stop in Malvern getting riders to Summerhill would cut commute times in half. Heck, peak ridership along the Transfer City corridors would plummet if something like this was in place. Where do you think the bulk of those Morningside, Neilson, and Sheppard East bus riders are heading? I say build this first, and then we'll truly be able to tell how much local demand is there along those corridors and whether it's worth billions in LRT investment. Building the LRT network first is just bass ackwards.

 

[nfitz]

Your gross exaggerations were that only one line even saved any travel time, and it was minor. Have you seen the traffic trying to cross the 401 to get to Scarborough Centre?

 

[gweed123]

Also, beyond that, an agency that control both the subway network and the GO rail network would probably focus on the long and medium-haul issues facing this city and region. This frees up the cities to deal with local transit and keeps various local issues (funding for example) from impacting the whole regional network. No silly tantrums about closing down a stubway, just because a mayor didn't get provincial funding, would be allowed.

But then you have the issue with the fact that the profit from the TTC subway heavily subsidizes a lot of the bus routes. You would need to work out a revenue transfer deal with the local transit agencies so that they could still operate effectively, even without their biggest revenue generating lines.

Personally, I really do see LRT in a different league from subways and heavy rail. Transit City was really an upgrade to the bus routes on those corridors. It's biggest benefit (speed) came from increased stop spacing and a dedicated lane. Not from the technology being used per se (since most of TC wasn't grade separated). In any event, I see the management of LRT lines (at least the ones at-grade) as not all that removed in complication from the existing streetcar lines. So the city would be fully able to build, manage and even fund the LRT network by itself.

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think the distinction should be made based on technology, it should be made based on regional importance. The Eglinton LRT is an important regional line. The Finch West LRT isn't, it's a line for Toronto.

Heck, putting the subway and Go networks under one roof might actually promote regional coherence for once. Something even Metrolinx basically sucks at, at the moment. It's a crazy idea I know.

I do agree with that. Metrolinx at this point is a funding authority, not a transit authority. The Big Move is really just a collection of local transit plans, with a few regional ideas thrown in.

 

[ssiguy2]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

 

[nfitz]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

Not true. I'm a Torontonian, and I find the increased service very useful. I really don't care about the fare ... it's still cheaper than parking.

 

[gweed123]

GO transit expansion does squat for Torontonians themselves until there is some form of discount of fares like Translink where the amount spent to get to the station {whether that 1,2, or3 zones} is deducted 100% off the price of the commuter rail fare and is valid on the other end.

That's a Presto and fare integration issue. That has nothing to do with the infrastructure itself. Those changes can happen almost overnight. It takes almost a decade to build infrastructure. Should we not plan for infrastructure now because the fare structure isn't in place now? In the many years that it takes to actually build it, I'm pretty sure they can work out a fare deal.

That's like saying "well I'm in the process of switching banks, so I shouldn't start looking at cars I want to buy 6 months from now".

 

[kEiThZ]

Your gross exaggerations were that only one line even saved any travel time, and it was minor. Have you seen the traffic trying to cross the 401 to get to Scarborough Centre?

Yes. I know the traffic in the area. But can you explain how an SRT ending at Progress actually helps? Maybe if you ride the Progress bus. But what does it do for you if you're riding McCowan North (the busiest bus route from STC...on the busiest stretch of traffic into STC), or the Nugget bus?

That line was useless unless it actually terminated at Malvern Town Centre (Centennial college students notwithstanding).

 

[nfitz]

Yes. I know the traffic in the area. But can you explain how an SRT ending at Progress actually helps?

Because the terminal (temporarily) would be near Progress and Sheppherd. This would alleviate all the congested travel over the 401 to Scarborough Centre - almost 4 kilometres away. It would be a huge time-savings. Also this was only Phase 1. In Phase 2, it would then be extended to Malvern Town Centre

That line was useless unless it actually terminated at Malvern Town Centre

Which was the plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

But then you have the issue with the fact that the profit from the TTC subway heavily subsidizes a lot of the bus routes. You would need to work out a revenue transfer deal with the local transit agencies so that they could still operate effectively, even without their biggest revenue generating lines.

I get this. But isn't this kind of a problem in and of itself. Our biggest challenge is our stunted subway network. A profitable subway network would have the resources to pursue expansion.

Instead, we use the subway network to prop up bus services (and/or keep fares lower) because that's what's politically popular. Let's face it, no politician is going to raise fares or cut local bus service today to help build up resources to build a subway line 10 years from now. Eventually, this politically expedient practice manifests itself into a persistent belief that we don't have the resources to expand the subway/heavy rail network and therefore must settle for at-grade, partially-segregated LRT.

So Torontonians will have to pay a bit more for the buses. Small price to pay to empower our rail networks with the independence and resources to grow. That and we might actually get a fare by distance scheme in the process....