News   Nov 15, 2024
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News   Nov 15, 2024
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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

There needs to be a fully grade separated subway line that parallels B-D line. Sheppard if extended east and west would do that. The problem is, it really wasn't built long enough in the first place. To now convert it to LRT is just wasting money.

Okay, but why? What objective do you anticipate it meeting that the current ECLRT and broader transit network (especially DRL and RER) cannot effectively meet?

There is a high demand to cross the city, not just going to downtown. If that weren't the case, the 401 would be empty, since you have the Gardiner.

If that's the solution you're trying to solve, the Crosstown plays no role in that solution. Grade separating the entire line would shave just four minutes off a crosstown trip that would take at least an hour. For those kind of trips, you'd really need some kind of RER-based solution, perhaps on the GO Midtown corridor of Finch hydro corridor. Subways won't cut it.
 
Maybe we should have a look at the Green Line in Boston, Massachusetts for comparison purposes. Keeping in mind that it is the oldest "subway" line in North America, opening in 1897. See link.





It includes underground subway stations.
800px-Haymarket_Green_westbound.jpg

and surface stops.
800px-Pleasant_Street_MBTA_station%2C_Boston_MA.jpg


The big difference is that it includes branches that go in different directions. We transfer.
5145122.png

I assume its the branches that have the on-street portion.
If Eglinton would have had branches, people could have understood a central underground portion with at-grade branches.
For the Eglinton design, there was no talk of branches, and no way to really implement them in the future.

I don't know why you say there is no way to implement branching in the future.

If the Crosstown were to be branched, the only opportunity I can see is a branch that travels up Jane Street north to Steeles. I don't think the problem is that it can't branch, but rather that there aren't any trip patterns that would be served well by branching.
 
Well I would have been happy with a dixon lrt that ran into the central eglinton underground corridor and then reemerge out at lawrence east and Victoria Park. But apparently the city doesn't like to run branches.

That's a curious idea. Geographically, it makes sense. But I'm not convinced that Dixon has LRT-level transit demand.
 
See the problem is I don't consider trains that have to wait for traffic light rapid transit, or is that just me....
I'd agree with you to a large degree.
If everything works well, then there is no problem.
If something minor happens on 1 branch, then that branch slows which would have a minor effect on the rest of the system.
If a branch suffers a major roadside delay, the 8 minute headway can still be reasonably replaced with shuttle buses.
Yes it's not 100% rapid, but its a logical way of saving money.
 
From another thread:

Is that capacity right though? Keep in mind with the system we're planning today, the underground portion will be automated and capable of very high frequency (and capacity). With a full grade-separated line with no branches that high capacity should carry through end-to-end. In such a scenario we'd be fools not opt for a high-floor vehicle, which naturally bumps capacity even higher.

The underground station are already designed and being built for low-floor vehicles. Would it cost a fortune to change the design mid-way? I suppose it would.

A 4-car subway every 1:30 I don't think we'd ever have to worry about crowding on Eglinton. Renforth to Markham/Sheppard @ +20kpphpd, Pearson or Winston Churchill to Renforth 10kpphpd each. Not bad.

Again, the underground stations are designed for 3-car trains max. The light-rail cars are longer then TTC subway cars, but they are narrower, resulting in the design capacity of about 175 per car, roughly same as per one subway car.

Even if the trains can be run on 1:30 headways, will the key station be overloaded with riders trying to enter / exit?
 
(almost) Everyone here agrees that it was a colossal mistake that Eglinton was no made fully grade-separated.

Only if ECLRT is built within the current design paradigm (half tunneled, half surface), and still runs over capacity, then we will have to count it as a mistake.

Many people here are saying it won't happen, and I tend to believe them. The ridership forecasts are never fully accurate, but it isn't likely that the actual demand will be 200% of the forecast.

If we see the actual peak demand within 10-12 k (still manageable with LRT), but could expect 18-20 k if it was a subway, then it is a matter of opportunity cost. You could either build 1 crosstown subway line, or 1 light rail line on Eglinton and another one say on Lawrence for the same price. Either option would have some pros and some cons.

Shouldn't the new government explore the cost of correcting that mistake?

I would suspect that platform height is already too late to change.
I also suspect it's too late to change the train type, unless some complicated switch can be made by sending these trains to Ottawa, Kitchener, Mississauga, or Hamilton, and buying more suited trains for this line.
With cross-over tracks at Laird, grade-separating the line from Brentcliffe to Kennedy trains could still use the Central portion of the "subway" and this construction would have zero effect on the opening date of the central portion.

I suspect the cost of grade-separation would be in the $1B to $2B range.

$2B would probably buy the cost of grade-separation from Laird to Kennedy, had it been a part of the original design. It would likely cost more now if we had to revisit that section, as some contracts should be already signed.

And, that certainly wouldn't upgrade the capacity of the central section which is in the advanced stages of construction now.

We can debate if choosing subway from the onset was a better option, but changing the design mid-way certainly isn't a good option. On the contrary, it can lead to disastrous results.
 
How the hell did I ever get anywhere?

Wot is located at Dixon and 427 and employs 50,000 people?;)

Yes but how do you get people to the LRT terminal? The airport employment zone is spread over many miles.
 
Yes but how do you get people to the LRT terminal? The airport employment zone is spread over many miles.
True. But at least it would not be inaccessible from Jane/Finch and northern Etobicoke which need access to quality employment. Most people working at the airport come from West and North. This can change that. Or Finch W LRT and Eglinton W LRT,...
 
Each branch gets a different colour. Eglinton is Orange, Dixon-Eglinton-Lawrence is something else. I'm not sure we will have so many rapid transit lines that we will run out of colours.
I truly believe that Jane should be a spur from Mt Dennis elevated off to the side of Black Creek Dr & have its first stop at Lawrence Ave.
Then Falstaff on Jane st.
Head North to Wilson & the all way up to Steele’s ave. With a few other stops in between.
Jane st south still serviced by bus until the Drl makes it way up to Eglinton.
And a local bus up to Falstaff.
I was on Jane st on Friday , two busses & one Express jammed packed.
Felt sorry for those poor people riding the bus north of Wilson.
This would work here , by alternating the Crosstown lrt W/B and have seamless Transit on a way better scale.
We need to think Outside the box & this would be relatively easy to implement.
 
I truly believe that Jane should be a spur from Mt Dennis elevated off to the side of Black Creek Dr & have its first stop at Lawrence Ave.
Then Falstaff on Jane st.
Head North to Wilson & the all way up to Steele’s ave. With a few other stops in between.
Jane st south still serviced by bus until the Drl makes it way up to Eglinton.
And a local bus up to Falstaff.
I was on Jane st on Friday , two busses & one Express jammed packed.
Felt sorry for those poor people riding the bus north of Wilson.
This would work here , by alternating the Crosstown lrt W/B and have seamless Transit on a way better scale.
We need to think Outside the box & this would be relatively easy to implement.
Jane south streetcar?
 
You could either build 1 crosstown subway line, or 1 light rail line on Eglinton and another one say on Lawrence for the same price. Either option would have some pros and some cons.
Theoretically couldn't an LRT on Lawrence be a branch of the EC and follow the same routing the 54 does? Say from Rouge Hill GO Station along Lawrence, than south on Leslie and connect with the EC at Leslie and Eglinton.
 
Jane south streetcar?
Yes You could extend the 512 down Jane st.
But as you know, it’s very narrow south of St Clair , I don’t think the residents in that area would be to happy with only one lane left for vehicles & a possible bike lane.
But they could possibly make this work or just wait a lot longer for a possible Drl extension in the year 2050
 

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