Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[hw621]

Oh, they study and model the line with signal priority to justify spending less on the line and making it an LRT at-grade, but when it comes to actually operating the line I'll bet my top dollar there won't be any signal priority.

So sad!

 

[W. K. Lis]

...
The downside of priority signal is that traffic has to stop for the train. If train is frequent (I would assume it will be), traffic will be interrupted.

3 or 4 vehicles with on average 1.3 people in each "interrupted" by 100, 200, plus people in a light rail train. How dare they!! Sorry, I won't get upset if I'm one of those 100, 200, plus people.

 

[hw621]

3 or 4 vehicles with on average 1.3 people in each "interrupted" by 100, 200, plus people in a light rail train. How dare they!! Sorry, I won't get upset if I'm one of those 100, 200, plus people.

I don't know. Crosstown is projected to have a train every 3 minutes. With the current and future development along the line traffic could get pretty busy, and it will stop every 3 minutes. In Edmonton and Calgary, more than 3 to 4 cars have to line up for their LRT. We shall see.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I don't know. Crosstown is projected to have a train every 3 minutes. With the current and future development along the line traffic could get pretty busy, and it will stop every 3 minutes. In Edmonton and Calgary, more than 3 to 4 cars have to line up for their LRT. We shall see.

The traffic signals currently along Eglinton change every 2 minutes or so. So no real problem. The smaller sidestreet traffic signals change 3 or 4 minutes, and only if there is a vehicle over the sensor loops or a pedestrian presses a button.

 

[dowlingm]

Huge fear of mine too. I don't exactly have a lot of confidence they will execute this properly. They should've buried the entire line.

Let's bury the roads instead.

 

[Avenue]

Overall, it woudln't be too bad:

1) Dedicated lanes means much less impact from the general traffic congestion.
2) Wide stop spacing - comparable to, or even slightly wider, than the BD subway average (not counting the section of BD east of Vic Park).
3) The central tunneled section will have a positive impact on the average speed. The majority of the riders will use the tunneled section for a portion of their trip.

So, overall the ECLRT could be ranked as about 80% to 90% as "rapid" as the BD subway.

LRT lines running entirely on surface (such as Finch West) is another matter; perhaps they should be ranked as advanced local transit, rather than rapid transit. And that's not necessarily bad, either.

1) This by itself has been a nonfactor for Spadina and St Clair.
2) Stop spacing is not wide. It's twice as frequent as its Bloor - Danforth counterpart where stops are at grade, which is expected to be the problem. Average spacing of the entire line is irrelevant.
3) This is a rail line - it will be as fast as the slowest portion. Trains won't be able fly through the tunnel when the at grade section is stuck waiting for cars to clear the traffic.

"90% as "rapid" as the BD subway" is extremely unrealistic.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Stop spacing is not wide. It's twice as frequent as its Bloor - Danforth counterpart where stops are at grade, which is expected to be the problem. Average spacing of the entire line is irrelevan

That's not true. On the 6.0 km stretch between Don Mills and Kennedy, there are 9 surface stops, or one stop every 666 metres.

This is a rail line - it will be as fast as the slowest portion. Trains won't be able fly through the tunnel when the at grade section is stuck waiting for cars to clear the traffic.

No, that's not how this works at all. If this were the case, all segments of the Yonge Line would have a speed of 22 km/h, which obviously is not the case.

 

[Amare]

Diddle with it, in what regard? TTC doesn't control TCP. Metrolinx would need to take up their concerns with Toronto Traffic Services

By diddle I mean the TTC ridiculous policy of making streetcars in ROWs crawl through intersections even when they dont have switches. That alone would be significant enough to mess with an LRT's operation.

 

[Rainforest]

3 or 4 vehicles with on average 1.3 people in each "interrupted" by 100, 200, plus people in a light rail train. How dare they!! Sorry, I won't get upset if I'm one of those 100, 200, plus people.

I think the concern isn't unreasonable; dependent on how the traffic priority is implemented. A "hard stop" could:

a) Affect much more than 3 or 4 vehicles. Vehicles already in the intersection must clear it, then the LRV must cross, and must clear the intersection as well. That could prevent as many as 10 vehicles per lane from crossing in the current cycle, times 4 to 6 lanes, we get to 40-60 vehicles.

b) Not all those vehicles are private cars with 1.3 occupants on average; frequent N-S bus routes will be affected as well. So, the total number of people inconvenienced by that feature may be comparable to the number of those who benefit.

For a frequent line like ECLRT, "smart" priority would be a better choice. That would mean, shortening or extending some signal phases when an LRV is approaching, to increase its chance to cross the intersection without waiting, or with a minimal wait. Modern electronic equipment should be able to accomplish that.

 

[Rainforest]

1) This by itself has been a nonfactor for Spadina and St Clair.

Spadina and St Clair are slow for other reasons: very close stop spacing, and traffic signal spacing. However, those streetcar lines are hardly ever blocked by non-transit traffic.

2) Stop spacing is not wide. It's twice as frequent as its Bloor - Danforth counterpart where stops are at grade, which is expected to be the problem. Average spacing of the entire line is irrelevant.

Of course the average is relevant, if the majority of trips include the tunneled portion where the stops are spaced more widely.

3) This is a rail line - it will be as fast as the slowest portion. Trains won't be able fly through the tunnel when the at grade section is stuck waiting for cars to clear the traffic.

No. The capacity is limited by the narrowest section, true. But the speed is not limited in that manner.

You can have an intercity bullet train entering/leaving the central stations at 10 kph, while doing 250 kph between the cities. Its average speed will be much closer to 250kph than to 10 kph.

"90% as "rapid" as the BD subway" is extremely unrealistic.

90% is my feeling rather than a calculation result, but I don't see why it would be so unrealistic.

 

[Rainforest]

Thanks for the info. That sounds a little comforting. To be honest I don't have a lot of confidence in the TTC, I am hoping that I am wrong with this one.

Wait a minute, it will be operated by the TTC right?

Will be operated by TTC. For all its shortcomings, TTC is the only agency around here that has any experience running this kind of transit.

 

[Amare]

Will be operated by TTC. For all its shortcomings, TTC is the only agency around here that has any experience running this kind of transit.

That really doenst mean anything. Truth be told Metrolinx could have chosen to operate it if they wanted to, but they wisely chose against it. For example in Hamilton's case, the HSR is the only transit agency with "experience" running transit in that city but Metrolinx will find a private company to operate that line whenever it opens.

 

[TransitBart]

Nice tweet from Metrolinx. I had no idea the ditch was that big already.
https://twitter.com/CrosstownTO/status/951114408771469313

 

[Rainforest]

That really doenst mean anything. Truth be told Metrolinx could have chosen to operate it if they wanted to, but they wisely chose against it. For example in Hamilton's case, the HSR is the only transit agency with "experience" running transit in that city but Metrolinx will find a private company to operate that line whenever it opens.

Well, HSR in Hamilton never operated any rail transit (or, at least not in the last several decades). A new company is about as good as HSR in that case.

But here in Toronto, introducing a new operator would lead to some odd effects, given how tightly various transit routes are integrated.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That really doenst mean anything. Truth be told Metrolinx could have chosen to operate it if they wanted to, but they wisely chose against it. For example in Hamilton's case, the HSR is the only transit agency with "experience" running transit in that city but Metrolinx will find a private company to operate that line whenever it opens.

HSR doesn’t have any modern experience running street railways (or railways of any type). TTC has the largest street railways system, and operates the fourth most used metro system on the continent.

Furthermore, the TTC has a rather excellent service track record, compared to its North American peers. It has the highest farebox recovery ratio of any metro operator in North America, while somehow maintaining among the best on-time performance records, despite woefully inadequate infrastructure. TTC's relatively new Sheppard Line, which should be most similar in terms and age and operations to the Crosstown, has 98% on time performance. Lines 1 and 2 obviously have worse on time performance, but thats a function of its crowding and antiquated signalling system, neither of which are really the fault of the operator (TTC).

So basically I don't see there being much of a chance of a private operator being able to improve on this. Especially since the Crosstown LRT is a brand new, relatively low ridership rapid transit line (just 7.,7k pphpd), which won't have any of the operational difficulties associated with old equipment and high crowding. What's the best case scenario?... slightly better on time performance and farebox recovery. With the TTC's performance record and farebox ratio, squeezing improvements out of that is like drawing blood from a stone. On the other hand, the worse case (and far more likely) scenario is that taxpayer and riders somehow get shafted by the private operator.

That said, you should take comfort in knowing that if the TTC does somehow screw up, Metrolinx can award the contract for private operation 30 years from now, if my memory serves me correctly.