Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[robmausser]

You are assuming they would keep a consistent design and not build a Taj Mahal for each above ground station. When we know they would blow the budget on each one.

I think the elevated track at the main street are needed....I just wish there was a way to keep politicians from overbuilding.

Its such a weird thing that happens in politics. Its either some crazy expensive design or, basically a glorified streetcar in the centre lane.

 

[nfitz]

Even if grade separation isn't done, they need to stop putting LRTs in the median. It can be At-Grade but to one side of the roadway, separate from the road. Its a much better choice for an area like this.

Once developed? Too many crossings.

 

[crs1026]

Middle of the road is fine, but duck it under/over those key intersections.

Why are we so determined to make LRT mediocre in this city? All the public art in the world won't fix an avenue if traffic is choked and transit is slowed.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

Once developed? Too many crossings.

Wrong. Its done this way in many cities around the world. Even in North America.

Its actually done this way more often than not actually.

I rode the Denver and San Diego light rail systems for years and its off to one side, with level crossing gates at every intersection.

 

[robmausser]

Middle of the road is fine, but duck it under/over those key intersections.

Why are we so determined to make LRT mediocre in this city? All the public art in the world won't fix an avenue if traffic is choked and transit is slowed.

- Paul

Middle of the road is not fine. Its dangerous for cars and pedestrians and its the most inefficient place to put an LRT.

 

[sixrings]

LRT is in the middle of the road in other cities. So much fear mongering on this site recently

 

[leopetr]

Middle of the road is not fine. Its dangerous for cars and pedestrians and its the most inefficient place to put an LRT.

Middle of the road is safer for pedestrians. Assuming a 5 min frequency, a street median LRT creates a safety refuge the length of the street for pedestrians to cross mid-block.

 

[Avenue]

Why would pedestrians cross rapid transit tracks apart from designated crossings? Are we expecting them to casually throw themselves onto the tracks in the east portion as well? Rapid transit and pedestrians crossing mid-block are mutually exclusive things to me.

 

[robmausser]

Middle of the road is safer for pedestrians. Assuming a 5 min frequency, a street median LRT creates a safety refuge the length of the street for pedestrians to cross mid-block.

It is not safer for people waiting for an LRT, stuck in between cars and trains.

LRT is in the middle of the road in other cities. So much fear mongering on this site recently

Most cities it is not. It is separated to one side of the roadway.

I lived in Denver and San Diego. Both cities they were off to one side of the roadway in most of the routes (not always of course) and it was much better where they were.

 

[BMO]

LRT is in the middle of the road in other cities. So much fear mongering on this site recently

Look at LRT examples across North America (the successful ones like Portland, Calgary, Edmonton) they aren't in the middle of the road in suburban areas, in fact Los Angeles' is in a trench grade-separated, Portland's is separated in various sections, Calgary's dips under major intersections and is generally grade-separated in many places. It's almost like LRT in the suburbs should be fast and reliable to attract ridership for medium-to-long-distance commutes instead of providing a local service.

Even in Europe, the LRT's holy land, often has LRT's in transit malls or other environments other than in the middle of the street.

 

[crs1026]

One intersting tid bit to the middle of road vs pedestrian debate. One of the fudges that was done to make the traffic studies looka little more respectable back during the Crosstown EA concerns the timing of the ‘walk’ lights as assumed by the traffic modelling. The City has a standard time allowed to cross a road the size of Eglinton. (It is indeed a wide expanse, enough so that pedestrians need a lot of time to fully cross the street.
When this standard timing was used in the traffic modelling, the results indicated problems both for traffic and for LRTs that would be held up while these long crossings were accomplished.
The consultants doing the traffic modelling consequently shaved the assumptions to not meet the City standard - in other works requiring pedestrians to cross Eglinton faster.
If center median LRT is now claimed to be dangerous to pedestrians, this is another reason to question the traffic data and to believe that at-grade will cause problems for both drivers and LRVs at those key intersections.
This nonstandard assumption is footnoted in the EA documents.
- Paul

 

[MisterF]

Its funny all of the suggestions we are giving to do a better job at grade separation from other cities.

We have an example here in Toronto. Want to know something even better, the example exists on EGLINTON AVE.

Its on this forum. It was just completed last week.

Just put an LRT where the busway road is.

Yup, unless I'm mistaken that's completely grade separated all the way to MCC. It's amazing that Toronto is ruling out grade separation on Eglinton when that very thing exists a literal stone's throw away on the same street. This just reinforces my belief that planning mass transit should be done by a regional body, not municipal governments. Then maybe we could avoid the disjointed mess that's forming on Eglinton.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Its funny all of the suggestions we are giving to do a better job at grade separation from other cities.

We have an example here in Toronto. Want to know something even better, the example exists on EGLINTON AVE.

Its on this forum. It was just completed last week.

Just put an LRT where the busway road is.

Playing devils advocate here:

Rail vehicles have very different characteristics than buses. LRVs accelerates slower than buses, cant handle steep inclines, and will be at increased risk of derailment when traveling over sections of track that change grade while on a curve. Also, the LRT stations can’t change elevation within the 90+ metre station length. These restrictions likely mean that the type of setup in your photograph would be impossible for Crosstown West.

I’m not saying it is impossible with any certainty. But you can’t assume what works for buses will work with rail vehicles.

 

[robmausser]

Playing devils advocate here:

Rail vehicles have very different characteristics than buses. LRVs accelerates slower than buses, cant handle steep inclines, and will be at increased risk of derailment when traveling over sections of track that change grade while on a curve. Also, the LRT stations can’t change elevation within the 90+ metre station length. These restrictions likely mean that the type of setup in your photograph would be impossible for Crosstown West.

I’m not saying it is impossible with any certainty. But you can’t assume what works for buses will work with rail vehicles.

Absolutely it would require a deeper trench and less curves and inclines. But I don't think that rules it out as being impossible.

Thats why we do studies. I'd be ok with a study concluding it is impossible.

But it wasn't even studied. Just some ridiculously tall overpasses on intersections.

 

[Voltz]

One intersting tid bit to the middle of road vs pedestrian debate. One of the fudges that was done to make the traffic studies looka little more respectable back during the Crosstown EA concerns the timing of the ‘walk’ lights as assumed by the traffic modelling. The City has a standard time allowed to cross a road the size of Eglinton. (It is indeed a wide expanse, enough so that pedestrians need a lot of time to fully cross the street.
When this standard timing was used in the traffic modelling, the results indicated problems both for traffic and for LRTs that would be held up while these long crossings were accomplished.
The consultants doing the traffic modelling consequently shaved the assumptions to not meet the City standard - in other works requiring pedestrians to cross Eglinton faster.
If center median LRT is now claimed to be dangerous to pedestrians, this is another reason to question the traffic data and to believe that at-grade will cause problems for both drivers and LRVs at those key intersections.
This nonstandard assumption is footnoted in the EA documents.
- Paul

That's most likely because they would have used two stage pedestrian crossings.