Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[DonValleyRainbow]

Airport = Federal. Conjecture on my part - how can one justify Federal involvement and play with their priorities?

AoD

The airport is federally regulated and is of federal interest, but Crosstown is not proposed on federal land, save for a station at Terminal 1. It would make sense that Ontario is a major funding partner, but it would justifiably call for the feds to be the other partner.

 

[W. K. Lis]

All routes at Skymark Hub will relocate to serve Renforth Gateway Station, along with GO Transit, by July of 2017. From link.

From link.

Mississauga Transitway: Renforth Gateway
May 16, 2016: We are only a little more than a year out from the scheduled opening of Renforth Gateway and construction is underway. Soon you will see the structure begin to take shape and the final roadway connections being made. Eglinton Ave at the Airport Corporate Centre is a hub of activity with construction well underway at the new Spectrum and Oribitor stations.

Renforth Gateway is the twelfth and final station and is scheduled to open a few months after Winston Churchill, Spectrum and Orbitor stations open in the spring of 2017. Renforth Gateway will be serviced by both MiWay and GO Transit and offer customers direct connections to the Toronto Pearson International Airport and the Bloor-Danforth subway line (TTC Islington Station). As part of the MiWay Five Transit Service Plan, MiWay is planning 22 buses an hour during peak periods – getting you to the places you want to go. When fully operational, east to west travel across Mississauga on the transitway will be reduced from 32 to 42 minutes to an estimated 20 minutes in 2017. And remember, there is no additional cost for you to ride on the transitway!

There would be buses going to the Kipling station, but with the Crosstown West LRT, I would expect some to make use of the LRT instead.

 

[Palma]

Ignorance was probably the culprit. At the very least the Leslie, Wynford, and Victoria Park stations should be grade separated.

Leslie and Wynford should not even exist

 

[Palma]

The 11 stop option is far superior to the 17 stop one. Mulham, Russell Valley, Wincott, Widdicombe Hill, Rangoon and even Renforth are superfluous.

these stops are ridiculous - it will look like st clair. With the new streetcars, due to close spacing, at front door you will be at one stop yet at the back doors at previous stop.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

these stops are ridiculous - it will look like st clair. With the new streetcars, due to close spacing, at front door you will be at one stop yet at the back doors at previous stop.

The 11 stop arrangement is broadly similar to BD station spacing (i.e. major intersections)- and we are dealing with shorter trains.

AoD

 

[Steve X]

these stops are ridiculous - it will look like st clair. With the new streetcars, due to close spacing, at front door you will be at one stop yet at the back doors at previous stop.

Etobicoke is much bigger than you think. It will never look like St Clair with 17 Stops. There needs to be at least 35 stops to look like St Clair. Martin Grove, Kipling, Islington, RY and Scarlett all are 1km apart. That's more spread out than any stations between most B-D stations. There needs to be 2 or 3 stops between each major street to look like St Clair.
Stop fooling yourself.

The 11 stop plan would probably need the TTC to maintain the 32 Eglinton West bus like the have the 85 for Sheppard subway. It isn't something TTC wants and adds to the operating budget.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

City staff clarified yesterday that their mandate to work with Mississauga and GTAA on planning the west line beyond Renforth to the Airport area includes negotiating cost sharing with Mississauga and GTAA.

I suspect the higher ridership numbers we are now seeing assume the line serves the Airport area.

I wonder what happens if these bodies just say "Thanks, but no thanks" to cost sharing.

- Paul

Whatever higher ridership we're seeing seeing isn't because of the Airport. The modelling in yesterdays report continues to anticipate very low demand (less than 100 passengers in peak hour) northwest of Renforth/Commerce, including from the Airport. This is curious, because elsewhere in their report they mentioned that there was significant demand for travel between Toronto and the Airport; whatever significant demand does exist, it's not showing up in the ridership modelling. However the modelling of airport demand consistent with the Eglinton Crosstown Travel Demand Forecasting Report (2009) and the Eglinton Crosstown Demand Forecasting Report (2013), all showing very low demand for travel to/from Pearson. So we have three different models, with three different authors, telling the same story now.

Toronto City Planning (2016). Eglinton West LRT Initial Business Case:

Toronto Transit Commission. (2009). Eglinton Crosstown Travel Demand Forecasting Report

City of Toronto Demand Forecasting Group. (2013). Eglinton Crosstown Demand Forecasting Report

 

[ShonTron]

Again, I reiterate the glaring obvious that at the very least the Leslie, Wynford and Victoria Park stations ought to be grade separated. With so much focus on the central tunneled section, I hope that they will address this matter when the eastern portion finally starts construction.

Yes, at the very least, I would have liked to see a trench under Victoria Park and Eglinton Square and a below-grade station at that complicated and busy set of intersections. Leslie makes we want to pull my hair out because it restricts capacity just short of a very busy station at Don Mills Road. But can we open the EA? Or implement these fixes later?

I like what I see on the west side - Martin Grove and the Eglinton/427/401 intersection was going to be the most difficult section, and I'm happy to see a trench here. I'll happily take Kipling and Scarlett as well. Looks like there's some sense and balance between smooth and rapid operations and cost of construction.

 

[Steve X]

I put this together to illustrate the stop spacing distance on Eglinton West LRT vs the St Clair streetcar. The 17 stop plan looks nothing like St. Clair.

I omitted the airport link.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I put this together to illiterate the stop spacing distance on Eglinton West LRT vs the St Clair streetcar. The 17 stop plan looks nothing like St. Clair.

I omitted the airport link.

It's also worth noting that the 17-stop LRT was anticipated to have an average speed of 30 kph on Eglinton West, which is actually 1 kph faster than both Line 1 and Line 2. This was without the grade separation at intersections too.

 

[BurlOak]

Whatever higher ridership we're seeing seeing isn't because of the Airport.

It's also not at the mid-block stops.

These stops all (except for East Mall) have less than 50 passengers and all have local bus routes that could bring riders to the nearest actual station.

 

[Steve X]

It's also not at the mid-block stops.

These stops all (except for East Mall) have less than 50 passengers and all have local bus routes that could bring riders to the nearest actual station.

Maybe if they maintain an half hour bus service on the 32. Most people living along Eg West are upper middle class unlike the low income class along Finch West and Crosstown East. Ridership along those mid block are very low outside of rush hour.

If we talk about ridership, a train every 8-10 minutes off-peak is really sufficient in the next decade for Crosstown West. I expect to see every other train short turn at Mt Dennis in off-peak. The major feeders, 45 Kipling and 37 Islington aren't that busy of a bus outside rush hour. The 46 Martin Grove and 73 Royal York routes would each bring only about 60-100 riders each hour in midday. The 79 Scarlett bus would have almost no body transferring to the LRT. The line itself would be pretty dead outside of rush hour unless commuting patterns change. The midblock stops might actual help boost ridership.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's also not at the mid-block stops.

These stops all (except for East Mall) have less than 50 passengers and all have local bus routes that could bring riders to the nearest actual station.

Okay, lets play a game. Below is a chart illustrating the ridership at each stop. The boardings at each stop is illustrated by the green line. Can you identify which of these stops are the mid-block stops? Since you say the mid-block stops are generating significantly fewer boardings than the other stops, this should be a piece of cake. NO CHEATING!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To further illustrate the point, here is the same graph showing boardings at each stop for the 17-stop LRT. The slope of the graph has been added in red:

You can see from the graph that there is nearly perfect linear growth in the ridership for all but two of the stops. All the stops are being more or less equally well utilized.

 

[Hopkins123]

I use the 32 Eglinton frequently and can attest that the mid-block stops are in fact sparsely used. Widdicombe Hill/Lloyd Manor is probably the busiest of the bunch, but do we really have $millions to shell out per additional stop just because a marginally few people couldn't be bothered to walk 150m over to Kipling or Martin Grove? And assuming platform lengths are 90 metres across, creative stop placement - such as having the Kipling stop on the west hand side and Martin Grove Stn positioned east - could have it be such that the walking distances are further minimized. We have done this historically on the TTC system with secondary entrances, which really help cut down the distances between stations such that it doesn't feel like an inconvenience to people living or working closer to the mid-blocks.

So in every case the need for a mid-block stop could be eliminated:

Scarlett Stn - actually positioned between Scarlett and 4400 Eglinton Ave West (the existing midblock stop)
Royal York North Stn - positioned between RY and Russell Valley
Islington North Stn - positioned between Islington and Wincott
Kipling North Stn - positioned between Kipling and Lloyd Manor
Martin Grove Stn - positioned between Martin Grove and Lloyd Manor
East Mall Stn - a barrier free tunnel could extend from the western end of the station (assuming grade separation) to the other side of the 427/401 interchange for access to Rangoon area residents.
Commerce/Renforth Gateway Stn - between Commerce and Renforth

It's a pity that we would unnecessarily overbuild transit in such a sparsely populated part of the city yet the DRL can't even get a Parliament St station stop.