Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[howl]

Question: How does the cost of operating and maintaining light rail vehicles on Eglinton Line compare to the cost of heavy rail vehicles (subways)? I'd assume that the cost of the LRV would be similar, since subways and light rail are [more or less] identical mechanically, but I'd like to be sure.

I don't have exact numbers but in general the larger the vehicle the lower the maintenance cost and the lower the operating cost on a per passenger basis. That's one of the main reason for going with a higher-capacity system. If smaller vehicles were the cheapest to maintain and operate we would have BRTs everywhere.

Think about just the cost of drivers. An articulated bus holds about 200 people. A three car LRT vehicle holds about 750 people. In order to move a daily average of 3000 people an hour you would need 4 LRTs or 15 buses moving each way, each with one driver. At $25 per hour the driver are costing $400 for the LRT and $750 for the bus, so right there the LRT is saving you $350 per hour. Multiply that by 20 hours and 365 days a year and you get a saving of $2.5 million, and that doesn't include driver benefits or other employee costs (uniforms, training etc.). You can scale that up with an 1100 passenger subway train. As your ridership goes up the more savings you get. Of course it's more complicated than that but you get the jist.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't have exact numbers but in general the larger the vehicle the lower the maintenance cost and the lower the operating cost on a per passenger basis. That's one of the main reason for going with a higher-capacity system. If smaller vehicles were the cheapest to maintain and operate we would have BRTs everywhere.

Think about just the cost of drivers. An articulated bus holds about 200 people. A three car LRT vehicle holds about 750 people. In order to move a daily average of 3000 people an hour you would need 4 LRTs or 15 buses moving each way, each with one driver. At $25 per hour the driver are costing $400 for the LRT and $750 for the bus, so right there the LRT is saving you $350 per hour. Multiply that by 20 hours and 365 days a year and you get a saving of $2.5 million, and that doesn't include driver benefits or other employee costs (uniforms, training etc.). As your ridership goes up the more savings you get. Of course it's more complicated than that but you get the jist.

I agree with this assessment. However, is it fair to say that light rail becomes cheaper once ridership is low enough? Surely its cheaper to several small light rail vehicles, rather than a massive, empty subway train.

 

[nfitz]

An articulated bus holds about 200 people. A three car LRT vehicle holds about 750 people.

Where do you get these numbers? A TTC Artic at peak holds 77 people. A single TTC Flexity holds 130 people - and are going to be similar in capacity to the Eglinton line vehicles.

You can probably ultra-crush a few more in. But 77 to 200? 130 to 250? These numbers don't make sense.

You can scale that up with an 1100 passenger subway train.

Well at least that number works. TTC report 1080 on a TR. I'd believe you could ultra-crush an other 3 people per car.

 

[44 North]

Speaking as someone who lives in the affected area (the east end of old Toronto) your DRL proposal made it pretty clear that you have no idea as to the actual facts on the ground.

So on top of having to deal with some bonkers fella reigniting debates that were long put to rest, not reading my posts (but still misquoting them), and calling me:

grossly incompetent, immovable, or ignorant

I have to deal with another poster making personal attacks. Sorry guy, I ain’t telling ya sheeeit. As for your issue with my Don Line routing and how I have “no idea the facts on the ground†(whatever that means)... Again: if you can find any evidence, point it out. What are they? The discussions on the matter are in the DRL and Fantasy Map threads, starting around Sept/Oct. If you supposedly know this area and see a problem with my route, why haven’t you posted about it?

I’ve always supported the one DRL alignment that everyone seems to think was written in stone and is somehow 100% guaranteed. But if it ain’t happenin (which is a distinct possibility that many ignore), there are alternatives. E.g GO Richmond Hill->Don Sub diversion. Re: the Crosstown... I don't know what you're whining about on that front. Questioning whether the in-median portion is RT or not is a valid discussion.

 

[nfitz]

I have to deal with another poster making personal attacks

How many times are you going to reply to the same post? LOL!

You've edited the context completely out of what I wrote. My point was that you were clearly neither grossly incompetent, immovable, nor ignorant, and simply had a great sense of humour.

Please don't call me name and remain polite. Thanks!

 

[marcus_a_j]

TBMs punching through headwall.

Source: Global News

 

[W. K. Lis]

I know. I completely forgot about Eglinton West station. Sigh... such a stupid question.

The sad thing is that I completely remembered that the reason the TBM couldn't cross Yonge was because of the Yonge Line. No such luck with me remembering the existence of Eglinton West Station.

I need to rest my brain

Does it hurt?

[video=youtube_share;evlrs5Bi_6E]http://youtu.be/evlrs5Bi_6E[/video]

Sorry... couldn't resist.

 

[howl]

I agree with this assessment. However, is it fair to say that light rail becomes cheaper once ridership is low enough? Surely its cheaper to several small light rail vehicles, rather than a massive, empty subway train.

Exactly. You don't want to over build, but you do want the most robust system that can serve your ridership targets. You also have to account for future growth and balance that with the financing of capital costs.

 

[howl]

Where do you get these numbers? A TTC Artic at peak holds 77 people. A single TTC Flexity holds 130 people - and are going to be similar in capacity to the Eglinton line vehicles.

You can probably ultra-crush a few more in. But 77 to 200? 130 to 250? These numbers don't make sense.

Well at least that number works. TTC report 1080 on a TR. I'd believe you could ultra-crush an other 3 people per car.

I was using numbers for the maximum possible for that type of vehicle, not numbers for current TTC stock. If I used numbers for current TTC stock the wags would say: Well what about the Volvo B12M Biarticulated bus that holds 200 people? and What about the Flexity Freedom in its 251 passenger configuration?

 

[nfitz]

I was using numbers for the maximum possible for that type of vehicle, not numbers for current TTC stock. If I used numbers for current TTC stock the wags would say: Well what about the Volvo B12M Biarticulated bus that holds 200 people? and What about the Flexity Freedom in its 251 passenger configuration?

There's no way you get 200 people in any 18-metre artic. And there's no way a Flexity Freedom has almost double the capacity of a TTC Flexity ... that puts more people in the car per metre of length than a much-wider subway car - reality is that it would be much less because not only is it narrow, but the % of space taken up by seating is higher.

 

[aquateam]

There's no way you get 200 people in any 18-metre artic. And there's no way a Flexity Freedom has almost double the capacity of a TTC Flexity ... that puts more people in the car per metre of length than a much-wider subway car - reality is that it would be much less because not only is it narrow, but the % of space taken up by seating is higher.

You have to be aware that whenever these passenger numbers are quoted for the vehicles there are normally three figures: the seated load, design load, and crush load. Design load is a reasonable number for what you can fit in, crush load is almost like one of those competitions where you see how many people you can fit into a mini cooper.

 

[nfitz]

You have to be aware that whenever these passenger numbers are quoted for the vehicles there are normally three figures: the seated load, design load, and crush load. Design load is a reasonable number for what you can fit in, crush load is almost like one of those competitions where you see how many people you can fit into a mini cooper.

Sure. But 200 as crush load? Only if you stack children. They are only 50% longer than a regular bus. So 133 on a regular bus? What do they do, sit on the roof?

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

If you supposedly know this area and see a problem with my route, why haven’t you posted about it?

Others did a fine job in pointing out why it was impractical, and I didn't find the need to pile on. Let's just drop it, okay?

I think that question of what to call the in-median portion of the Crosstown is ultimately a pointless endeavor. Most people (including transit professionals) aren't so fussy about mode classification - in fact, the TTC's map of higher-order transit services is called "subway system map" despite the fact that it clearly includes the Scarborough RT, and now the 192 Airport Rocket. Presumably they took off the Harbourfront route when it became clear that it was no faster than any other surface route, whereas the in-median portion of the Crosstown will be faster than an equivalent bus route.

 

[Ozman]

So it look like Dennis made it to the finish line first. That slacker named Lea better not be too far behind.

I believe you've got it backwards, TM. The video appears to show Lea breaking through while the hole (to the north) for Dennis remains unbroken.

So not only did Lea win, but it was a come-from-behind victory after Dennis got quite the head-start! So far it's Leaside 1, Mt. Dennis 0.

On another note, I love the names of the TBM's and I get that they started with Dennis and Lea as the two end-points of the tunnel but's ironic that Lea will never be tunneling through (under) the Town of Leaside.
And on the east tunnel drive, Humber will never be tunneling anywhere near the Humber River. Perhaps they should have done the west with Dennis and Humber and the east with Lea and Don.

Just a minor quibble as I'm musing out loud.

 

[robmausser]

Sure. But 200 as crush load? Only if you stack children. They are only 50% longer than a regular bus. So 133 on a regular bus? What do they do, sit on the roof?

LRTs are also wider than a normal bus. And one trainset of these LRT's is longer than a typical bus. The Flexities are twice the length of a bus, and the LRT's for Eglinton LRT are even bigger than the Flexities.