Solid Snake
Active Member
Look at page 16 of the report. It says "ELEVATED/TUNNELED". I think elevated is adequate.
I'm against AT GRADE aka St.Clair/Spadina not against elevated
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Look at page 16 of the report. It says "ELEVATED/TUNNELED". I think elevated is adequate.
I'm against AT GRADE aka St.Clair/Spadina not against elevated
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
As a designated rapid transit corridor it would need a DRL to alleviate the already existing network as well.
Justin10000
Banned
A network of AT GRADE lines is much better than one underground suburban line.
car4041
Active Member
Where does it say 15 minutes? I can't seem to find it.
Let's use the average speeds they list on page 19 of that document:
- Surface LRT: 22km/h
- Fully-separated LRT: 30-32km/h (let's use 32km/h to be generous)
The portion that would be tunneled in both plans, Black Creek to Brentcliffe, is about 10.5km long. So at 32km/h, that would be about 19 minutes.
The eastern portion, Brentcliffe to Kennedy, is about 8km long.
- With surface LRT at 22km/h, that would be 22 minutes.
- With grade-separated LRT at 32km/h, that would be 15 minutes.
So assuming the average speeds are correct, the time difference would appear to be 7 minutes. The time for the whole line would be 41 minutes with the at-grade option or 34 minutes with the buried option. This would be a 17% savings, less than the 25% that Metrolinx says on page 7. And that's being as generous as possible, assuming 32km/h rather than 30km/h. I'm not saying they're wrong in claiming a 25% reduction, because I have no idea what that number is based on, but it doesn't jive with the average speeds they present.
In order for the time savings between Brentcliffe and Kennedy to be 15 minutes as Solid Snake said, the at-grade option would need to have an average speed of 16km/h, about the same as the St. Clair streetcar. I can't imagine there's any way that could be the case, given the extremely close stop spacing on St. Clair.
Solid Snake
Active Member
Official numbers:
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/Eglinton_Scarborough_Presentation.pdf
Fully tunneled:
Jane to Kennedy=35 minutes
Total line speed from Jane to Scarborough Center =45 minutes
Old Transit City plan "at Grade"
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/pdf/faq.pdf
Kennedy to STC=10 minutes
Kennedy to Eglinton=30 Minutes
Eglinton to Eglinton-West=7 minutes
Eglinton-West to Jane=with 7 more stops=maybe 12 minutes???
You're not too far from 25% evaluation from Metrolinx
But what's more important to me beyond "how many minutes you save" is the rideship difference that's far more important
P.7
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf
30% increase and a 50% increase at peak hour if completely grade separated vs at grade (P.16)
Grade separated includes "ELEVATED" not only tunneled
I said time and time over that elevated should be an option and Metrolinx did offered it before. With the ridership fluctuation, at grade would be very short sided and irresponsible for the future. By 2050, Grade separated Eglinton will qualify for Subway service although Elevated LRT can still do it but "At grade" won't be even close.
Might as well elevate it now than do it at double or triple the cost in 30 years
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Voltz
Senior Member
This has been said before, the extra riders on a grade separated Eglinton line are not new riders to the system, they are currently riding the Bloor Danforth Subway and would just switch over to Eglinton, they do not need an alternative route. There is little to no net gain in terms of ridership resulting from a grade separated Eglintion line.
car4041
Active Member
This would imply a line speed of 34km/h, faster than the 30-32km/h that they give elsewhere. But maybe this could be due to leaving out half of the stops on the eastern section (which could equally well be done to boost the speed of the surface option...)
Actually, in this case, it's not really important at all, because the increase results pretty much exclusively from diverting riders off of the Danforth subway, so it's just juggling passengers from one line to another.* Since the Danforth subway is not at capacity, I don't see why we need to drop a couple billion to give these riders an alternative subway route. (And eventually the DRL will relieve the busiest section of the Danforth subway, so even from a very long-term perspective, I don't think a Danforth Relief Line, i.e. an Eglinton East subway, needs to be a priority.)
*Yes, this is true: Steve Munro was told so in a meeting with Metrolinx staff. Quoted from Steve: "Demand to downtown does not change much with the addition of the Crosstown line because it does not generate much new demand to downtown along its route, but only diverts trips that would otherwise use the BD path."
Solid Snake
Active Member
21 Brimley-8900
17 Birchmount -9800
68 Warden-16200
70 O'Connor-8300
24 Victoria Park-23500
67 Pharmacy-4700
91 Woodbine-5200
56 Leaside-3300
25 Don Mills-40800
100 Flemingdon Park-15800
Total : 136500 riders on bus routes crossing Eglinton Avenue East of Laird.
Over half of them will use the Eglinton line instead of staying on the bus to Danforth Avenue. True, you're not creating a lot of new riders with the Eglinton line being grade separated but your're making their trip a hell lot shorter to a rapid transit line.
Why do you think the numbers fluctuates that much? Don't you think Metrolinx anticipated that people will rather stay on the bus then walk to the middle of Eglinton Ave. East and wait for the LRT? (Imagine winter time)
I'll give you the most absurd example that I know of. I use to live on Bathurst and St.Clair and let me tell you the amount of people exiting the Bathurst bus to walk or wait for the St. Clair streetcar to go to St.Clair West station was ridiculously small. They rather stay on the bus to Bloor than take the streetcar or walk to the subway unless it was a 7C Bathurst bus that went in the station. Eglinton East will not be any different.
Making those trips on the above bus routes shorter is a huge improvement to the level of service to Torontonians who will get to where they want to go faster than before.
Is it worth the investment? Personally, I think elevated would be better. Cheaper, same speed as subway and we have proof that it works ex: Keele Station, NYC, Chicago
For the million time, I advocate for 100% grade separation which includes elevated. I doesn't need to be underground.
car4041
Active Member
44% of those riders are on the Leaside, Don Mills, and Flemingdon Park buses, which cross Eglinton close enough to the tunnel portal that full grade separation would only make a minimal difference to the travel time of people who choose to transfer there. So the Eglinton line will be close to equally beneficial to those riders whether or not its eastern portion is at grade.
For the routes farther east, the busiest two are Victoria Park and Warden. Let's take someone on the Victoria Park bus heading to Yonge & Bloor. If they stay on the Vic Park bus, the trip from Eglinton to the Bloor-Danforth subway (Victoria Park station) will be 12 minutes. If they transfer off the bus to a grade-separated Eglinton line and take it to Yonge and then take the subway south, the corresponding trip from Eglinton station to Bloor-Yonge station will be 9 minutes. So in the end they'll have saved 3 minutes. Is this really a huge improvement that's worth spending a couple billion for? I think those funds would have far more benefit elsewhere (e.g. Finch).
Riverdale Rink Rat
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You'll note that the Snake (and most others advocating grade-separated lines) didn't use a dollar sign anywhere in his posts. He's advocating grade-separated regardless of cost, while those of us advocating surface LRT are almost always referring to cost as a huge factor. It's hard to square the 'conservative' circle on transit, since it seems to leave out us 'fiscal conservatives'.
Drove out to Tapworks on Kingston Road on Saturday to spend some money. Came back via Markham, then Eglinton, in order to hit Sultan of Samosas on O'Connor. I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Kennedy to Vic Park section of this line gets up so many people's noses -- there's easily room for tracks and just about anything else you want to put in here. There's three lanes of traffic in both directions, an incredibly crappy turning lane set up -- blowing up Eglinton and starting over, even if you put in a track, has got to be a good idea.
More important to anyone's commute on Eglinton would be a complete do-over of the crazy O'Connor/Victoria Park/Eglinton intersection. If you dropped a new LRT station there and it forced the transit planners to revise that intersection, you would probably save everyone (car drivers, LRT users, samosa lovers) enormous aggravation.
Drove out to Tapworks on Kingston Road on Saturday to spend some money. Came back via Markham, then Eglinton, in order to hit Sultan of Samosas on O'Connor. I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Kennedy to Vic Park section of this line gets up so many people's noses -- there's easily room for tracks and just about anything else you want to put in here. There's three lanes of traffic in both directions, an incredibly crappy turning lane set up -- blowing up Eglinton and starting over, even if you put in a track, has got to be a good idea.
More important to anyone's commute on Eglinton would be a complete do-over of the crazy O'Connor/Victoria Park/Eglinton intersection. If you dropped a new LRT station there and it forced the transit planners to revise that intersection, you would probably save everyone (car drivers, LRT users, samosa lovers) enormous aggravation.
Eug
Senior Member
Improvements in traffic flow, etc. would be very welcome on that corridor, as it is extremely slow during rush hour. I don't know what time you came back from Tapworks. During the day outside of rush hour, it's half empty.
That said, it is already effectively 2 lanes during rush hour, because of the HOV lane. Adding the surface LRT would keep it at 2 lanes.
Riverdale Rink Rat
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On a project the size of Eglinton, having the LRT duck under major intersections along Eglinton East won't be a deal-breaker in terms of overall project cost, but it would definitely increase the efficiency of both the line and the traffic flow on cross streets.
Have the station at each major intersection be underground, but directly underneath the street, with the cross street providing a roof over the central section. The platform would extend out on each side, and then after exiting the station the track would ramp back up to at-grade, or near at-grade. When I get some free time I'm going to sketch up what I mean.
It would be a really bare bones station, with the northwest and southeast corners of the intersection both having a small structure with an elevator and a staircase leading down to a small mezzanine right beside the platform. Think Dundas Station, but less elaborate. The northeast and southwest sides would just be a simple staircase, like at the downtown stations. No heating required, because it would be mostly open air, with only the intersection above providing shelter.
Would it be more expensive? Yeah. Would it be a worthwhile expense? You bet your ass.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
Having the LRV going under the intersections to the stop or station would mean the vehicles could speed up as they go downhill, required more braking power. They would also require more power to accelerate to go back uphill.
Better to have the LRV go over the intersection to a stop or station. Going uphill, the vehicle would allow gravity to slow it down as it is about to enter the stop or station. It will go downhill and allow gravity to speed it up after leaving the stop or station.
Basically how the stations are configured in the Montréal Metro stations.
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Doesn't seem like that big of a deal at Spadina Station, St. Clair West Station, or the portal on the Harbourfront Streetcar. Those streetcars seem to manage it just fine.