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Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

Palma said:
There is no way that elevated is better than median. I love the College, Queen and King streetcars and they are not even ROW. Of course downtown with the amount of cars and people its hard to go above the speed limit which is nice and those street are so vibrant. Putting anything below ground on those street would be a tragedy
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Putting the College, King and Queen streetcars underground would be a tragedy? Talk about hyperbole. I'm not even going to bother arguing this.

I guess this is Toronto Stockholm Syndrome. Let's call it the Toronto Syndrome. We've made do with our slow, plodding, at-grade streetcars for so long we've developed this affection for them that renders any hope of improvement over them unthinkable. We don't want to get away from it.

If the Toronto Syndrome existed back in the day, we would never have built Yonge or University or Bloor-Danforth lines. We want the view goddammit, who cares when I get where I want to go!

EDIT: Christopher Hume is another well-known sufferer of the Toronto Syndrome. I think you two would get along famously. I suggest you calculate which of the 500-series streetcars is slowest and ride it all day, and hope you catch every single red light just so you can enjoy the view longer.
 
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Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I guess this is Toronto Stockholm Syndrome. Let's call it the Toronto Syndrome. We've made do with our slow, plodding, at-grade streetcars for so long we've developed this affection for them that renders any hope of improvement over them unthinkable. We don't want to get away from it.
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While taking a streetcar all the way from Finch to King on Yonge is a silly idea, taking the 504 from Riverdale to King & Bay is a (most days) relaxing experience much better than the subway alternative (Broadview to Yonge/Bloor, switch lines, ride to King, hike underground.) The streetcars have their uses; no need to get your knickers in a knot.

Streetcars aren't the be-all and end-all, but the people who really hate streetcars are the car drivers forced to deal with them. Selfishly, I don't really care about their travails, since they could just join me on the streetcar if it annoys them to have to drive on streets with streetcars.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Presentation from the Feb 28 Town Hall:

http://thecrosstown.ca/sites/default/files/Eglinton-Scarborough_Crosstown-LRT-Update_reduced.pdf

See p. 7 - does that mean they are still considering interlining?

AoD
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There are no words to that effect. The diagragm on page 7 even shows Eglinton and SRT as separate colours. I did not interpret it that way at all.

The 2010 EA (http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/scarborough_rapid_transit/epr/a5_a6_exec_summary.pdf) showed SRT and Eglinton arriving at Kennedy Station at different elevations, so I doubt they could be interlined. Finally, the capacity of the Eglinton East portion (between Don Mills and Kennedy) may not be adequate if interlined since many passengers would continue to Yonge/Eglinton instead of transfering to B-D. Actually, even the Scarborough-Malvern line is not interlined as well since it stops on the East side of the rail lines. Forcing the NE Scarborough residence to have a transfer at Kennedy Station is integral to the Transit City Plan.
 
quick q guys, as i can't seem to find the answer sifting through this massive thread. how many additional minutes will be added to the commute time with the eglinton route going onto surface? thanks!
 
ellett44 said:
quick q guys, as i can't seem to find the answer sifting through this massive thread. how many additional minutes will be added to the commute time with the eglinton route going onto surface? thanks!
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15 minues approx or 25% longer (Page 7)
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf

Ridership – forecasted to increase by 30%, and peak hour travel to
increase from 5,400 passengers to 12,000 passengers
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That's the main argument for keeping it underground or elevated. Attracting DOUBLE the ridership is worth the spending otherwise that extra ridership will refuse the "at-grade" LRT and turn to their cars or just ignore it to go to the Bloor Danforth line
 
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Thanks Solid Snake for the quick reply! I meant how many additional minutes would be added the commute time for vehicles for the proposed surface section of the lrt (from Kennedy to Don Mills) vs. commuting times for vehicles for that section today? Do we have those numbers?
 
ellett44 said:
Thanks Solid Snake for the quick reply! I meant how many additional minutes would be added the commute time for vehicles for the proposed surface section of the lrt (from Kennedy to Don Mills) vs. commuting times for vehicles for that section today? Do we have those numbers?
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If you mean cars, I don't have the data but logically not being able to turn left or having left turn restriction would make it longer
 
Solid Snake said:
15 minues approx or 25% longer (Page 7)
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf


That's the main argument for keeping it underground or elevated. Attracting DOUBLE the ridership is worth the spending otherwise that extra ridership will refuse the "at-grade" LRT and turn to their cars or just ignore it to go to the Bloor Danforth line
Click to expand...

So attracting double the ridership that is still less than the Finch, and SELRT ridership is a good justification for putting a line underground where a surface alignment can surface. Makes no sense!
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Justin10000 said:
So attracting double the ridership that is still less than the Finch, and SELRT ridership is a good justification for putting a line underground where a surface alignment can surface. Makes no sense!
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Look at page 16 of the report. It says "ELEVATED/TUNNELED". I think elevated is adequate.
I'm against AT GRADE aka St.Clair/Spadina not against elevated
 
Solid Snake said:
15 minues approx or 25% longer (Page 7)
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf
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Where does it say 15 minutes? I can't seem to find it.

Let's use the average speeds they list on page 19 of that document:
- Surface LRT: 22km/h
- Fully-separated LRT: 30-32km/h (let's use 32km/h to be generous)

The portion that would be tunneled in both plans, Black Creek to Brentcliffe, is about 10.5km long. So at 32km/h, that would be about 19 minutes.

The eastern portion, Brentcliffe to Kennedy, is about 8km long.
- With surface LRT at 22km/h, that would be 22 minutes.
- With grade-separated LRT at 32km/h, that would be 15 minutes.

So assuming the average speeds are correct, the time difference would appear to be 7 minutes. The time for the whole line would be 41 minutes with the at-grade option or 34 minutes with the buried option. This would be a 17% savings, less than the 25% that Metrolinx says on page 7. And that's being as generous as possible, assuming 32km/h rather than 30km/h. I'm not saying they're wrong in claiming a 25% reduction, because I have no idea what that number is based on, but it doesn't jive with the average speeds they present.

In order for the time savings between Brentcliffe and Kennedy to be 15 minutes as Solid Snake said, the at-grade option would need to have an average speed of 16km/h, about the same as the St. Clair streetcar. I can't imagine there's any way that could be the case, given the extremely close stop spacing on St. Clair.
 
car4041 said:
The time for the whole line would be 41 minutes with the at-grade option or 34 minutes with the buried option. This would be a 17% savings, less than the 25% that Metrolinx says on page 7. And that's being as generous as possible, assuming 32km/h rather than 30km/h. I'm not saying they're wrong in claiming a 25% reduction, because I have no idea what that number is based on, but it doesn't jive with the average speeds they present.
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Official numbers:
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/Eglinton_Scarborough_Presentation.pdf

Fully tunneled:
Jane to Kennedy=35 minutes
Total line speed from Jane to Scarborough Center =45 minutes

Old Transit City plan "at Grade"
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/pdf/faq.pdf

Kennedy to STC=10 minutes
Kennedy to Eglinton=30 Minutes
Eglinton to Eglinton-West=7 minutes
Eglinton-West to Jane=with 7 more stops=maybe 12 minutes???

You're not too far from 25% evaluation from Metrolinx

But what's more important to me beyond "how many minutes you save" is the rideship difference that's far more important

P.7
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf

Ridership – forecasted to increase by 30%, and peak hour travel to
increase from 5,400 passengers to 12,000 passenger
Click to expand...

30% increase and a 50% increase at peak hour if completely grade separated vs at grade (P.16)

Grade separated includes "ELEVATED" not only tunneled
I said time and time over that elevated should be an option and Metrolinx did offered it before. With the ridership fluctuation, at grade would be very short sided and irresponsible for the future. By 2050, Grade separated Eglinton will qualify for Subway service although Elevated LRT can still do it but "At grade" won't be even close.

Might as well elevate it now than do it at double or triple the cost in 30 years
 
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