Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[k10ery]

This line of thinking is very dangerous. It's a real threat to the proper integration of transit across the region. And it's a threat to the city's own interest. You can impose additional fees for out of towners, or give discounts to residents. But what if the 905'ers decide then that they don't want to pay for subways in Toronto? What if they start pressing politicians to reduce GO service in Toronto (or charge more to 416 residents)? And what happens if the burbs respond in kind? Imagine the mess we'll have as people flock to their cars in response.

Proper public transit service is as much in our own interest as it is in theirs. Also, there's no way that more than 1/3rd of the TTC's ridership is composed on non-residents. So you could argue that the city is still mostly subsidizing Toronto residents.

Everybody's getting subsidized, car and transit riders alike, so everybody argues about why their subsidy should be bigger. If you could eliminate the subsidies you eliminate the whole problem. The starting point is cars. Best estimates say the subsidy to urban car commuters is about 5 cents per kilometre. If you start taxing that say through a GTA gas tax you are going to generate at least $1 billion a year in revenues. Then eliminate the TTC/Go operating subsidies, so taxpayers aren't subsidizing transit users either. You can plough all the money from travel pricing into building new transit capacity.

With $1-2 billion a year I suppose you could build subways everywhere. And they'd be full, even on Sheppard.

Easy as pie right? Except you have to start by raising the price at the pump about 50 cents a litre.

 

[11th]

With $1-2 billion a year I suppose you could build subways everywhere. And they'd be full, even on Sheppard.

Easy as pie right? Except you have to start by raising the price at the pump about 50 cents a litre.

If the new tax is advertised as "temporary", let's say 50 cents per litre for five years, and then 10 cents per litre afterwards, maybe it'd be a better sell. I bet one of the big reason people do not like additional taxes is because most of the time, it is a permanent measure.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Everybody's getting subsidized, car and transit riders alike, so everybody argues about why their subsidy should be bigger. If you could eliminate the subsidies you eliminate the whole problem. The starting point is cars. Best estimates say the subsidy to urban car commuters is about 5 cents per kilometre. If you start taxing that say through a GTA gas tax you are going to generate at least $1 billion a year in revenues. Then eliminate the TTC/Go operating subsidies, so taxpayers aren't subsidizing transit users either. You can plough all the money from travel pricing into building new transit capacity.

With $1-2 billion a year I suppose you could build subways everywhere. And they'd be full, even on Sheppard.

Easy as pie right? Except you have to start by raising the price at the pump about 50 cents a litre.

You're correct and it's ridiculous that we're still having this conversation. Corporate welfare bums owe us all a lot of money.

 

[Nick.]

maybe the taxes that people in a city pay, should go directly to that city's infrastructure.. sorry if this idea is too crazy.

 

[nfitz]

maybe the taxes that people in a city pay, should go directly to that city's infrastructure.. sorry if this idea is too crazy.

But then who would subsidize the costs for roads, schools, hospitals, etc. for those that choose to live in the largely vacant, rural portions of our province?

 

[Automation Gallery]

Toronto’s transit planning: No way to run a railway
Transit planning in Toronto is a colossal, humiliating failure. It is hard to imagine how any city could make a greater hash of it.

While other major cities from Taipei to Seoul to Madrid have rolled out vast networks of rapid transit, Toronto has fallen far behind. It is 34 years this week since the last extensive subway project opened: the Spadina line going north from Bloor.

One new subway, on Eglinton West, was halted in mid-construction for lack of provincial funding. A hole was dug for a tunnel, then filled right back in again. Another project, the underused five-stop Sheppard “stubway,” dead-ends at a mall. A third, the rinky-dink, outmoded Scarborough RT, runs on vehicles that don’t hook up to the subway system

It is a clown show of the first order. Who on Earth is in charge?
A city cannot act like this and expect to build a decent transit system. Rapid transit requires long-term planning, firm, consistent leadership and huge amounts of money. Cities that do it properly come up with a plan looking decades into the future and stick to it.

Toronto? Toronto plays politics, cancels projects in midstream, draws up plans only to rip them up and delays, delays, delays. It is no way to run a railway.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...nning-no-way-to-run-a-railway/article2318311/

 

[Eug]

Someone tell McGuinty to cut a cheque for $35.00 so Moose Factory can get their population rated share of the transit pie and start on the Birch Street LRT. You have to plan for the future!

Toronto's population is about 2.7 million. The ECLRT is supposed to be $8.2 billion. That works out to about $3000 per person, which means Moose Factory (with a population of about 2500) should get a check for $7.5 million.

 

[Dan416]

I completely disagree. I'm not suggesting that they pay more fares. I'm suggesting that TTC be funded appropriately from other Regional and Provincial governments to account for the very high number of non-Toronto residents who use TTC, in comparison to Toronto residents who use other systems.

Proper integration of transit isn't going to happen without appropriate funding being provided to the agency (TTC) that would take the biggest hit.

That's a very odd piece of logic. Simply because most riders are Torontonians doesn't mean Torontonians should be subsidizing the 905ers who use TTC.

This is extremely worrying thinking. The Regions fought tooth-and-nail to eliminate the pooling of funds that went to pay for gold-plated City of Toronto services when the services we provide in the Region are anything but gold-plated.

I'm so tired of this myth that the 416 is subsidizing the 905.

 

[Paleo]

This is extremely worrying thinking. The Regions fought tooth-and-nail to eliminate the pooling of funds that went to pay for gold-plated City of Toronto services when the services we provide in the Region are anything but gold-plated.

I'm so tired of this myth that the 416 is subsidizing the 905.

Do you know where the excess education taxes collected in Toronto went when the funding formula was changed by Harris? No, of course you don't.

 

[Electrify]

Toronto’s transit planning: No way to run a railway
Transit planning in Toronto is a colossal, humiliating failure. It is hard to imagine how any city could make a greater hash of it.

While other major cities from Taipei to Seoul to Madrid have rolled out vast networks of rapid transit, Toronto has fallen far behind. It is 34 years this week since the last extensive subway project opened: the Spadina line going north from Bloor.

One new subway, on Eglinton West, was halted in mid-construction for lack of provincial funding. A hole was dug for a tunnel, then filled right back in again. Another project, the underused five-stop Sheppard “stubway,” dead-ends at a mall. A third, the rinky-dink, outmoded Scarborough RT, runs on vehicles that don’t hook up to the subway system

It is a clown show of the first order. Who on Earth is in charge?
A city cannot act like this and expect to build a decent transit system. Rapid transit requires long-term planning, firm, consistent leadership and huge amounts of money. Cities that do it properly come up with a plan looking decades into the future and stick to it.

Toronto? Toronto plays politics, cancels projects in midstream, draws up plans only to rip them up and delays, delays, delays. It is no way to run a railway.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...nning-no-way-to-run-a-railway/article2318311/

Gee is either way off or on the mark. This is one of those times it is the latter. In fact, it may be one of his best articles to date.

 

[k10ery]

Do you know where the excess education taxes collected in Toronto went when the funding formula was changed by Harris? No, of course you don't.

But then who would subsidize the costs for roads, schools, hospitals, etc. for those that choose to live in the largely vacant, rural portions of our province?

You guys want to eliminate the subsidy to rural schools and hospitals? I go out to the countryside occasionally. Let's not turn it into Mad Max out there!

Thirteen years later, the provincial education tax is STILL higher in Toronto, don't forget.

 

[gweed123]

This is a lousy way to do it from a business perspective. Given every department an equal $N without regard to actual requirements or income from that area. It might appear most fair but can really hurt the pocket book of everybody in the provice.

"Business perspective"? I didn't realize government was supposed to be run like a business.

How does it hurt everybody?

Different regions have different constraints on their economic growth. Targetting those specific constraints will best boost all growth overall. Toronto's main constraint at this time is in moving people. Building a new highway in Thunderbay (something they want) isn't going to help the jobs situation there thus no new hospital/education money (income tax revenue).

Pretty sure construction jobs are still jobs, and pretty good paying jobs at that... Not to mention the spin-off benefits of increased capacity on trade routes, etc.

Growing Toronto does mean new hostpital/education money and that does tend to get distrubuted pretty evenly; with Toronto reveiving significantly less than paid in those categories.

So, how do you improve health-care in Thunderbay? Projects like the Georgetown corridor and Union Station capacity improvements is one way to do it. It's indirect and time consuming, but it is sustainable income that does not require long term deficit spending to accomplish.

How does healthcare funding relate to transportation funding? I don't get what you're trying to get at.

That's why Toronto deserves higher than normal transportation spending at this time. FYI, a Toronto specific road toll or tax would be an acceptable way to accomplish this higher spending level but we don't seem to be able to do that.

Toronto isn't the only city in Ontario that's having trouble moving people. Yes, conditions are amplified because of the size of the region, but too many cars on the road and too little transit isn't a Toronto-specific problem, so the idea that Toronto should get more than everyone else is frankly ridiculous. I'm not saying Toronto should be getting less, I'm just saying it should be an even playing field for everyone.

If a City or Region wants to supplement their Provincial funding allotment with road tolls, gas taxes, vehicle registration tax, or property tax increases, all the more power to them. If they're willing to take those steps, they deserve every penny above and beyond what the Province gives them. But the base allotment for Provincial funding should be the same formula for everyone.

Like I said before, for a City like Toronto it means a new LRT line. For a City like Ottawa, it means new bus lanes. For a town like Perth, it means a revitalization of their Main Street.

 

[GenerationW]

"Business perspective"? I didn't realize government was supposed to be run like a business.

It should to a degree. No one wants to be in Greece's predicament.

 

[GenerationW]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1121729--rob-ford-still-wants-to-build-a-subway?bn=1

Did anyone watch the video at the bottom of this article? Christopher Hume doesn't want any of Eglinton to be buried.

 

[allabootmatt]

I was already gobsmacked by this gong show, and then this: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-metrolinx-over-eglinton-line/article2318278/

The language in the TTC report, which is on the agenda for this week's Commission meeting, is somewhat milder than the Globe article would suggest. But the TTC itself seems to be doing its best to paint a giant bullseye on the Crosstown's funding. How hard would it be for McGuinty to say that Toronto was given a huge check for transit, no questions asked, and then started complaining about it, and that that money would go further with someone who knew what they want?