Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[ViewfromtheLake]

I believe the City of Toronto still has one of the lowest property taxation rates in the province.So plenty of scope for raising funds from property taxes. There should be further room to build ridership As improvements come on stream. But funding should and needs to include some provision of assistance from the province on a longer term basis as well.

 

[nfitz]

I believe the City of Toronto still has one of the lowest property taxation rates in the province.

The rates go down when the property value goes up.

But the tax per household is not the lowest in the province. And then if you compare a similar sized house and lot size, to what someone with that size house and lot size pays in other places, Toronto property taxes are much higher. If lot sizes are smaller, then the cost to provide services to each lot (roads, sidewalks, snow clearing, water mains) is lower per household.

Just because my property value has quadrupled since I bought it, doesn't mean I can afford to pay quadruple the taxes.

That being said, property tax increases have been below inflation for many (but not all years) in Toronto in the last couple of decades. Generally council aims to increase the budget by the rate of inflation, which then ends up with individual increases below inflation, because the property tax base has increased (though also impacted the other way, by the slow shift of the tax burden from commercial to residential). Some relatively small (10 percentish) increases wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[Steve X]

Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.

 

[rbt]

Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.

Agreed. Multi-unit residential is (usually) taxed at a different rate. Owning a single building with 6 units, or 3 duplexes, or 6 individual condo units aren't so different in practice.

Income tax already asks about your primary residence. Add a tick-box to allow sharing that information with the relevant municipality, compare/match against the name on title (so kids can't easily claim the parents investment), and change multi-unit to primary and non-primary residential rates.

I prefer income tax for registration rather than direct with the municipality as it immediately prevents games like spreading units between 6 different municipalities by having a single field.

 

[Undead]

And then if you compare a similar sized house and lot size, to what someone with that size house and lot size pays in other places, Toronto property taxes are much higher.

IIRC, property taxes in Chicago are 2-3x our rates.

 

[nfitz]

IIRC, property taxes in Chicago are 2-3x our rates.

Only 2-3 times? Given how low land values are there, I'd have thought more. They must pay a lot less property tax than we do!

 

[trtcttc]

They've done several experiments deploying additional management/oversight to a line, and service (particularly bunching, on-time departures, etc.) noticeably improves every time. It's not a cheap solution but it's one of the few experiments that's been reliably successful.

You might argue automated electronic oversight can do the same thing but when you look closer you find they already have that; every driver already regularly gets information telling them whether they ahead or behind schedule.

I think you’ve kind of answered where the problem is. If additional oversight seems to be so helpful, and the electronic means are there, it seems like the issue is the drivers are not following that digital information the TTC has paid for. Somehow after all this digitization, the TTC that is so sorely underfunded it has to pay someone to stand at a street corner manually recording the streetcar times on a notebook.
Similarly, we’ve paid for (in $ and in closures) for this ATC systems, and the TTC union is fighting tooth and nail to try to argue single operator on the subway is “unsafe” when it is safely operated in systems that’d be many times the size of the TTC. Can we fund the TTC better? Sure, but I think the people these funds are paying for may also be part of the problem. This is not even mentioning the unvaccinated drivers causing safety issues for transit riders, the multi-year insurance fraud, and on and on the list goes.

 

[Jonny5]

The problem is the City alone as it currently is can barely afford to pay for the TTC. Sure its not getting worse (usually) but it hasn't exactly got better either. Unless the City were to increase taxes which is a poison pill to any political campaign nothing will get better. Farebox revenue as well isn't a stable source of income either, yet the TTC is expected to make up a disproportionately large portion of its operating budget using it. Sure the current system more "stable" but the status quo is not helping either, it's more or less just causing us to kick many cans down the road.

You've captured what I think will happen. The province says it will fund 30% of the TTC operating subsidy and the City will cut their funding of the subsidy by 30% because "we can barely afford it" and "taxes are too high already". It's a net zero gain in funds and invites a whole host of problems, unless the province makes the City to agree to some kind of "guaranteed minimum funding," but we've already seen those guarantees can be torn up on a whim any time some Ontario government politicians feel like it because "we can barely afford it" and "taxes are too high already."

I also think this province won't touch it without 100% control and that could mean stuffing it into Metrolinx or something, which is a horrible outcome!

 

[felix123]

The important thing is that it isn't supposed to work like this.
A functioning city (that levies property tax) sets the budget first, and then calculates the mill rate * property tax rate needed to collect enough revenue to cover their services.

If the TTC requires x dollars, the city is supposed to calculate the correct mill rate * property tax rate in order to pay for that line item. They don't say, "we're raising property taxes arbitrarily and then we'll see what we can do with the money."

So if you're a property owner in Toronto, accept whatever increase comes to your already low rate - with a smile and a nod - and feel good that you're helping fund the TTC, and hope that the Crosstown succeeds.

 

[evandyk]

As long as people keep electing politicians whose main campaign plank is no property tax increases higher than the rate of inflation, that's how it's going to be done.

Of course, they did add an "additional levy" (which is not to be referred to as a property tax increase!) a few years ago, which was a good step.

 

[W. K. Lis]

As long as people keep electing politicians whose main campaign plank is no property tax increases higher than the rate of inflation, that's how it's going to be done.

Of course, they did add an "additional levy" (which is not to be referred to as a property tax increase!) a few years ago, which was a good step.

The bad news is that the users from the 905 only pay the TTC fare, which is 68.0% (2018) of the cost. The remaining 32% of covered by the people and businesses of Toronto. From link.

 

[vic]

Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.

Wouldn't this end up shifting higher taxes to renters? I thought this was an issue that people already complain about (though I don't really know the details myself).

 

[W. K. Lis]

One of the many reasons for closing Line 1 on weekends was because of the construction of the new station under the Eglinton Station for Line 5. However, there was also construction on the Line 1's Eglinton Station box itself. Unless changed from the original plans, they were planning to extend the station box on Line 1 northward.

See link, dated November 17, 2013.

I haven't heard of any plans to shift the station boxes for any interchange stations for the Ontario Line.

 

[robmausser]

One of the many reasons for closing Line 1 on weekends was because of the construction of the new station under the Eglinton Station for Line 5. However, there was also construction on the Line 1's Eglinton Station box itself. Unless changed from the original plans, they were planning to extend the station box on Line 1 northward.

See link, dated November 17, 2013.

I haven't heard of any plans to shift the station boxes for any interchange stations for the Ontario Line.

I think this was canned, I dont think they are going this anymore. From what I recall, the platform is simply being extended a little bit, and thats it.

Someone correct me if im wrong.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think this was canned, I dont think they are going this anymore. From what I recall, the platform is simply being extended a little bit, and thats it.

Someone correct me if im wrong.

The only reference I could find was in Wikipedia, from this link.

In November 2013, the TTC originally proposed to shift the current Line 1 platform approximately 70 m northward of its current location. Such a change would have allowed smoother flows of passenger traffic between the platforms for Lines 1 and 5, and avoided a situation where all transferring passengers are bottlenecked by only one transfer path, similar to the busy Bloor–Yonge station. The pocket track at the north end of the station would have had to be abandoned. However, this proposal was modified by March 2018 to shift the Line 1 platform north by only 24 m, allowing the pocket track to be retained. In the new area there will be an elevator and escalators down to the Line 5 concourse. At the south end of the platform, the elevator and stairs to the south station entrance will be retained but the platform edge will be walled off in this area.

While only 24m shift northward, that still means why we had Line 1 closures on the weekends.