Toronto CIBC SQUARE | 241.39m | 50s | Hines | WilkinsonEyre

daptive · Aug 9, 2023

interchange42 said:
TOK Coach Lines (which admittedly only runs 12 buses a week, 6 in, 6 out, half to/from Haliburton, half to/from Southampton and points in between) moved out of the Union Bus Terminal owing to the unpredictability of traffic in Toronto and difficulty in maintaining schedules because of it. They now pick up and drop off from VMC as their main Toronto station (with Pearson being the other main stop on the Southampton route).

Then you get Flixbus who are running discount trips to New York, Ottawa, Montreal, London, Detroit, etc. You may see their buses on the street because even though they are going downtown, they don't want to pay the fee to use the terminal.

Finally, as the frequency of the GO train network increases to 2-way all-day service on most lines, it will make more sense for coach lines that don't have to come into town to terminate at suburban GO stations and/or subway stations like Highway 407 station which is built for tons of buses that haven't arrived yet.

For those reasons — downtown traffic making schedules difficult to maintain, discount operators not wanting to pay the fee, improved GO train service making busing downtown runs less necessary — I'm not convinced that the Union GO Bus Terminal is underbuilt.

42

What is underbuilt is the dedicated infrastructure to and from the bus terminal, crazy that buses can’t get two meters outside the terminal before they’re stuck in stop go traffic.

Northern Light · Aug 9, 2023

interchange42 said:
TOK Coach Lines (which admittedly only runs 12 buses a week, 6 in, 6 out, half to/from Haliburton, half to/from Southampton and points in between) moved out of the Union Bus Terminal owing to the unpredictability of traffic in Toronto and difficulty in maintaining schedules because of it. They now pick up and drop off from VMC as their main Toronto station (with Pearson being the other main stop on the Southampton route).

Then you get Flixbus who are running discount trips to New York, Ottawa, Montreal, London, Detroit, etc. You may see their buses on the street because even though they are going downtown, they don't want to pay the fee to use the terminal.

Finally, as the frequency of the GO train network increases to 2-way all-day service on most lines, it will make more sense for coach lines that don't have to come into town to terminate at suburban GO stations and/or subway stations like Highway 407 station which is built for tons of buses that haven't arrived yet.

For those reasons — downtown traffic making schedules difficult to maintain, discount operators not wanting to pay the fee, improved GO train service making busing downtown runs less necessary — I'm not convinced that the Union GO Bus Terminal is underbuilt.

42

I'm inclined to agree w/your overall assessment; but I do wonder if:

a) The fees for using the terminal are objectively high, and if a lower fee wouldn't result in materially higher usage?

b) If the access issues noted were addressed with at least limited distanced dedicated lanes to/from the Gardiner whether that wouldn't also generate a material uptick.

Both of these combined may not result in the terminal being under-built for the reasons you noted, particularly GO Expansion. But I think it's a bit murky to me on where the capacity utilization would land.

UtakataNoAnnex · Aug 9, 2023

daptive said:
What is underbuilt is the dedicated infrastructure to and from the bus terminal, crazy that buses can’t get two meters outside the terminal before they’re stuck in stop go traffic.

It's better then it was as it's location is much closer to the on/off ramps of the Gardiner. But it's no where near being called acceptable, IMO.

mburrrrr · Aug 9, 2023

I wonder if their staffing budget to deal with traffic/safety issues was higher than planned. Still seems like there is “extra?” ground people on staff.

Amare · Aug 9, 2023

interchange42 said:
TOK Coach Lines (which admittedly only runs 12 buses a week, 6 in, 6 out, half to/from Haliburton, half to/from Southampton and points in between) moved out of the Union Bus Terminal owing to the unpredictability of traffic in Toronto and difficulty in maintaining schedules because of it. They now pick up and drop off from VMC as their main Toronto station (with Pearson being the other main stop on the Southampton route).

Then you get Flixbus who are running discount trips to New York, Ottawa, Montreal, London, Detroit, etc. You may see their buses on the street because even though they are going downtown, they don't want to pay the fee to use the terminal.

Finally, as the frequency of the GO train network increases to 2-way all-day service on most lines, it will make more sense for coach lines that don't have to come into town to terminate at suburban GO stations and/or subway stations like Highway 407 station which is built for tons of buses that haven't arrived yet.

For those reasons — downtown traffic making schedules difficult to maintain, discount operators not wanting to pay the fee, improved GO train service making busing downtown runs less necessary — I'm not convinced that the Union GO Bus Terminal is underbuilt.

42

The thing is though, there has been an increase in operators who are interested in serving the Union Station Bus Terminal directly. Flixbus has moved into the terminal to serve Union Station directly, and Trailways has also recently started up service. Then you've got: Greyhound, Red Arrow, Ontario Northland, Megabus/Coach Canada, and Rider Express serving the terminal as well.

Operators are certainly interested in serving the terminal directly if they are serving downtown, and unless they happen to be passing by a suburban GO station, I doubt they would have interest in terminating/starting trips at those locations. The only operators I can see doing this would be Ontario Northland and Megabus/Coach Canada. The rest I cant realistically see doing such a move unless terminal fees got exorbitantly high (higher than they already are).

It's the bus lay-by space that i'm also concerned about, with buses just parked all over the downtown core which is having a serious toll on the surrounding roads because there's not enough space in the bus terminal for buses to lay-by in. Once (and whenever) GO drastically improves service, this will no doubt cut down on all the routes it has pulling into the station which would increase bus parking space in the terminal proper, but it's the increase in bus providers and their service frequencies that has me concerned.

daptive said:
What is underbuilt is the dedicated infrastructure to and from the bus terminal, crazy that buses can’t get two meters outside the terminal before they’re stuck in stop go traffic.

The traffic surrounding the station is out of control at this point. There have been times it's taken me 20 mins to get from Yonge and Harbour, to Bay and Lake Shore and buses are backed up trying to enter/leave the terminal.

ProjectEnd · Aug 9, 2023

My understanding is that there was supposed to be some sort of computerized bus parking system that has not yet been turned on because of some sort of deficiency? I certainly don't want to speak authoritatively on it because I don't know the details but maybe someone better acquainted with this stuff does? @Reecemartin? @ShonTron? Any insight here?