Toronto CIBC SQUARE | 241.39m | 50s | Hines | WilkinsonEyre

[interchange42]

There's a reasonable chance that the offices now in the Dominion Public Building on Front Street will all move into 45 Bay when it opens, allowing the reworking of the DPB for retail and whatever else they want in rest of the complex. The Feds want to sell the building, so why not move the offices into the new tower?

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[AndreaPalladio]

As a general rule, class A office buildings don't rent to government, because they are so hard on space. The exceptions to this are the Federal Crowns in the Exchange Tower (in reality, just another law firm) and the CPP Investment Fund, coming to the new E&Y building on Adelaide (in reality, just another investment fund). Also, governments don't want to pay for class A space.

 

[Waterloo_Guy]

As a general rule, class A office buildings don't rent to government, because they are so hard on space. The exceptions to this are the Federal Crowns in the Exchange Tower (in reality, just another law firm) and the CPP Investment Fund, coming to the new E&Y building on Adelaide (in reality, just another investment fund). Also, governments don't want to pay for class A space.

I had the same thought. Although I think 45 Bay will be AAA.

 

[caltrane74]

16 York is 800,000 sf. It's not small. And I think CF is trying to move that one before they start on 156 Front. I don't think 45 Bay is competing with anyone yet. I think the only towers in a position to take a tenant right now are 16 York, 156 Front, BA North, and Union. Just those 4.

I think CF wants to move on 156 Front first, before 16 York, especially with regards to snagging TD.

My opinion is that one of the big 3 office proposals will be the one to get TD as a tenant.

 

[Waterloo_Guy]

I think CF wants to move on 156 Front first, before 16 York, especially with regards to snagging TD.

My opinion is that one of the big 3 office proposals will be the one to get TD as a tenant.

16 York is one of the big proposals--it's 800,000 sf. And if you go to the CF website they are marketing 16 York but not 156 Front.

 

[maestro]

I hope TD decides on one of these proposals over backfilling existing space or a 905 campus.

 

[junior43]

I hope TD decides on one of these proposals over backfilling existing space or a 905 campus.

I know downtown is the only option. No 905 campuses.

As to backfilling vs net/new building, I believe they need it before any new tower can be built.

Positive on the first point, speculation on the second.

 

[taal]

I know downtown is the only option. No 905 campuses.

As to backfilling vs net/new building, I believe they need it before any new tower can be built.

Positive on the first point, speculation on the second.

I'm always afraid of the 905, maybe even say VCC / downtown Marham ish ... I hope the core always manages to retain the big banks. A lot have back offices in the 905 ... TD in the giant old IBM building on Steeles / Vic Park .. Lberity center is the name I think

 

[Waterloo_Guy]

I'm always afraid of the 905, maybe even say VCC / downtown Marham ish ... I hope the core always manages to retain the big banks. A lot have back offices in the 905 ... TD in the giant old IBM building on Steeles / Vic Park .. Lberity center is the name I think

I imagine that suburban office space isn't competing with downtown. Surely the banks use the suburbs for different purposes. I can't imagine putting their call centre downtown in premium space.

 

[taal]

I imagine that suburban office space isn't competing with downtown. Surely the banks use the suburbs for different purposes. I can't imagine putting their call centre downtown in premium space.

No no, I'm not referring to back office in that sense, a lot of this stuff is IT (many banks still have their IT downtown ... which makes sense, these are very high paying jobs ... I'm not referring to IT in the sense of support for their systems, rather all the software development all banks are involved with in; Banks hire thousands of software developers). I believe the liberty center houses some of TDs software developers. CIBC for example has a lot in the Atrium on Bay but also in the giant facility ~ Lawrence / Dufferin.

 

[Waterloo_Guy]

No no, I'm not referring to back office in that sense, a lot of this stuff is IT (many banks still have their IT downtown ... which makes sense, these are very high paying jobs ... I'm not referring to IT in the sense of support for their systems, rather all the software development all banks are involved with in; Banks hire thousands of software developers). I believe the liberty center houses some of TDs software developers. CIBC for example has a lot in the Atrium on Bay but also in the giant facility ~ Lawrence / Dufferin.

Ah, I see what you mean now. If CIBC houses them in the Atrium, do you think that banks prefer to put these jobs in cheaper buildings downtown? I'm wondering if they would look over expensive new space for these jobs and maybe put them in older downtown locations.

 

[taal]

My take is 10/20 years ago they'd love to move all these out; But now many of the new and attractive smaller technology media companies are in the greater core; The older traditional large American software development companies with Canadian development labs (not just sales ..) e.g. IBM / Oracle / ... a long list, have always located in the likes of Markham, but this is true for these companies all around the World, they tend to locate development labs in suburbs.

Not so for newer tech companies (small or large), of course I'm not making a blanket generlization, but the boom in the King West area has been fueld by technology companies (though some of this is media / advertisement / marketing).


Anyway as a result I think the banks going forward may want to keep such jobs in the core; A lot of these banks of a lot of development around their trading departments (stocks / bonds / ...) these tend to locate in the core regardless (as their internal customers are downtown).


Long story short, I'm hoping TD keeps everything in the core ! : - ) Time will tell.

 

[Kitsune]

No no, I'm not referring to back office in that sense, a lot of this stuff is IT (many banks still have their IT downtown ... which makes sense, these are very high paying jobs ... I'm not referring to IT in the sense of support for their systems, rather all the software development all banks are involved with in; Banks hire thousands of software developers). I believe the liberty center houses some of TDs software developers. CIBC for example has a lot in the Atrium on Bay but also in the giant facility ~ Lawrence / Dufferin.

Almost all of CIBC's tech is at Bell Trinity .. AOB is more for Audit of technology and stuff like that, as well as PCF related stuff. And CIBC too is relatively crunched for space but is taking a very different approach.

 

[taal]

Almost all of CIBC's tech is at Bell Trinity .. AOB is more for Audit of technology and stuff like that, as well as PCF related stuff. And CIBC too is relatively crunched for space but is taking a very different approach.

You seem to have a lot of insight ! Curious what approach is CIBC taking ? Also regarding TD, I do recall reading in the short term they want very central location (as I think there lease expires soon) but for the longer term they were open to other locations ? Are they considering things out of the core for the long term ?

 

[maestro]

CIBC's approach much like the other banks is to cram more and more people in with smaller workstations or in any other available space. Who needs a small conference room when you can have a dozen contract workers there juggling keyboards on their laps.

Investment banking and head office functions are downtown. Day to day banking operations are in lower class, cheaper space or the suburbs.

A bank choosing one of these proposals with irregular floorplates and plenty of tenant amenities would be a welcome step in the right direction. I just don't see it. I do believe someone is looking for a landmark tower but, I be shocked if it turns out a bank.