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Toronto/Chicago comparisons

vz64 said:
Interesting. Maybe she lives in the suburbs? Then it might be true... But I agree with that 30 yr old observation, even 10 yr ago Toronto was more sleepy/quiet place than it is now. I remember visiting my wife back in 2000-01. She was articling at the time and she lived close to Bay and Edwards. We would go out to lower parts of Yonge, also to Bay and Dundas area, even to Queen W. These parts of downtown were becoming very empty after 10pm... and that was on Fri-Sat nights! I had to return to Kingston late on Sat/Sunday and, even around 1-2am, Princess was still bustling with toursists and Queen's students! Well, that was 10 yr ago... My wife did not like the downtown back then, but now she compares Toronto to San Francisco.
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I often think that Toronto's image gets a bit hit by the location of some of our larger hotels. Case in point.....if you stay at the Intercontinental at Simcoe and Front and walk out your door on a non-game night....there is not a ton of life. If you walk out the the door of the same chain in Chicago you are right on Michigan Ave. Think of the front door of a lot of our large hotels and what a tourist/business traveller who wants to explore the 'hood (but not necessarily the city) might find....the Hilton (busy area during the day but once the towers empty...)....the Sheraton? Royal York?

Some of the perception of night life in Toronto is just an old stereotype hangover from the past....but some of it really is affected by those front doors.
 
TOareaFan said:
I often think that Toronto's image gets a bit hit by the location of some of our larger hotels. Case in point.....if you stay at the Intercontinental at Simcoe and Front and walk out your door on a non-game night....there is not a ton of life. If you walk out the the door of the same chain in Chicago you are right on Michigan Ave.
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That's going to vary by hotel. I remember the first time I stayed in Chicago, and the hotel was somewhere near Columbus and Water. The Fairmount I think. The whole area was pretty lifeless after 5 pm. It wasn't until I checked out the tourist map in the hotel, and found myself to Michigan, that I realised there was some life. But away from Michigan, I really was surprised how lifeless it was! Now that was a few years ago now ... perhaps it's changed ... though looking on Streetview, it seems pretty lifeless in the daytime!

That was a pretty high-end hotel too!
 
nfitz said:
That's going to vary by hotel. I remember the first time I stayed in Chicago, and the hotel was somewhere near Columbus and Water. The Fairmount I think. The whole area was pretty lifeless after 5 pm. It wasn't until I checked out the tourist map in the hotel, and found myself to Michigan, that I realised there was some life. But away from Michigan, I really was surprised how lifeless it was! Now that was a few years ago now ... perhaps it's changed ... though looking on Streetview, it seems pretty lifeless in the daytime!

That was a pretty high-end hotel too!
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It does vary by hotel....and, yes, Columbus is not the most active street. That said (and it is just an impression formed from 8-10 trips to Chicago) I get the sense more of the big hotels in that town are in/on their more active streets than ours which tend to be just that bit removed.....no big deal (distance wise) if you know the city but the sort of people who propagate the "Toronto shuts at 10" myth aren't likely people who know the city....so what they see out the door of our bigger hotels will influence/extend that opinion.
 
I'm in Chicago this week with the family, staying at the Knickerbocker hotel on the Magnificent Mile. This far we've walked the waterfront from the hotel to the Shedd Aquiarium, visited Navy Pier, took the arcithetural boat tour, walked a great deal of the downtown, visited the Shedd Aquiarium, shopped all over the Mile, ate deep dish at Gino's, etc.

My thoughts, Toronto doesn't compare at all favourably. Chicago's waterfront is amazing, with no condos blocking the view, with fantastic buildings, including condos that work at street level, with flowers, gardens and planters lining much of the downtown areas. They even have fenced off, no dogs allowed parks - something that would never happen in downtown Toronto. I didn't notice any downtown spaces used for homeless shelters, and noticed perhaps three beggars. No do I see tracks of social housing (it is either well intergated into the area, or not here). To be fair, I've only visited the area east of North Michigan.

I usually visit Chicago for work and stay in the burbs, so this is my first time staying downtown. I'm loving it.

Apologies for poor spelling here, I using a new to me Galaxy Tab and still sorting it out.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I'm in Chicago this week with the family, staying at the Knickerbocker hotel on the Magnificent Mile. This far we've walked the waterfront from the hotel to the Shedd Aquiarium, visited Navy Pier, took the arcithetural boat tour, walked a great deal of the downtown, visited the Shedd Aquiarium, shopped all over the Mile, ate deep dish at Gino's, etc.

My thoughts, Toronto doesn't compare at all favourably. Chicago's waterfront is amazing, with no condos blocking the view, with fantastic buildings, including condos that work at street level, with flowers, gardens and planters lining much of the downtown areas. They even have fenced off, no dogs allowed parks - something that would never happen in downtown Toronto. I didn't notice any downtown spaces used for homeless shelters, and noticed perhaps three beggars. No do I see tracks of social housing (it is either well intergated into the area, or not here). To be fair, I've only visited the area east of North Michigan.

I usually visit Chicago for work and stay in the burbs, so this is my first time staying downtown. I'm loving it.

Apologies for poor spelling here, I using a new to me Galaxy Tab and still sorting it out.
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I need to comment about this ! I personally loved Chicago's waterfront but only AS A TOURIST ! As a local, I think what Toronto plans to build is much more interesting ( of course I doubt it'll pan out the way we'd like but either way .. ) ... and I've had this echo'd by many, Chicago is probably one of if not the best city in North America for typical tourists by far and large ! But friends who live there may it clear to me, don't assume that implies living there is just as great.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I'm in Chicago this week with the family, staying at the Knickerbocker hotel on the Magnificent Mile. This far we've walked the waterfront from the hotel to the Shedd Aquiarium, visited Navy Pier, took the arcithetural boat tour, walked a great deal of the downtown, visited the Shedd Aquiarium, shopped all over the Mile, ate deep dish at Gino's, etc.

My thoughts, Toronto doesn't compare at all favourably. Chicago's waterfront is amazing, with no condos blocking the view, with fantastic buildings, including condos that work at street level, with flowers, gardens and planters lining much of the downtown areas. They even have fenced off, no dogs allowed parks - something that would never happen in downtown Toronto. I didn't notice any downtown spaces used for homeless shelters, and noticed perhaps three beggars. No do I see tracks of social housing (it is either well intergated into the area, or not here). To be fair, I've only visited the area east of North Michigan.

I usually visit Chicago for work and stay in the burbs, so this is my first time staying downtown. I'm loving it.

Apologies for poor spelling here, I using a new to me Galaxy Tab and still sorting it out.
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I agree that Chicago's touristy waterfront area is very nice but as a whole, greater Chicago has social problems of a magnitude that is simply not present in Toronto. Between the downtown core and the suburbs there are numerous neighbourhoods in Chicago, such as the "South Side" that would be highly dangerous for tourists to visit: to the point that doing so at the wrong time might mean that you don't leave again. Toronto has no real equivalent to these neighbourhoods, as even the the most notorious areas like Regent Park or Jane & Finch are pretty safe to visit as a law-abiding citizen in daylight. The fact that both cities have almost exactly the same population yet Chicago had over 500 homicides last year versus Toronto's 54 is a telling stat. To put it in perspective, there was one weekend in Chicago last June where 41 people were shot. Imagine taking a full year of Toronto shootings and packing them into 3 days.

It's likely none of this happened in the areas where you've visited, though, just as you may have seen fewer "beggars" or less "social housing" (is that a good thing?) . What that really means that serious issues like poverty and racial inequality are being ignored or pushed into neighbourhoods where tourists don't typically visit. In Toronto, the poor and marginalized are more closely integrated into the rest of the population, for better or worse.

Of course I'm not saying Toronto is perfect or that we have nothing to learn from other cities like Chicago, which I also enjoyed visiting, but it's important to keep perspective and remember that sometimes what you see as a tourist is a bit calculated and doesn't reflect the whole picture. There's more to being a good city than just having a Disney-fied waterfront for tourists to visit, and pursuing that as as end goal in of itself might not be the best priority.
 
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That's a phenomenon typical of American cities. U see the same thing in st pete Florida. Beach drive is beautiful with no beggars. U go 4 blocks up and they're all there. As if the homeless know not to go there. They're either not allowed or the cops push em out when they see them. I don't know.
 
CityPainter said:
I agree that Chicago's touristy waterfront area is very nice but as a whole, greater Chicago has social problems of a magnitude that is simply not present in Toronto. Between the downtown core and the suburbs there are numerous neighbourhoods in Chicago, such as the "South Side" that would be highly dangerous for tourists to visit: to the point that doing so at the wrong time might mean that you don't leave again. Toronto has no real equivalent to these neighbourhoods, as even the the most notorious areas like Regent Park or Jane & Finch are pretty safe to visit as a law-abiding citizen in daylight. The fact that both cities have almost exactly the same population yet Chicago had over 500 homicides last year versus Toronto's 54 is a telling stat. To put it in perspective, there was one weekend in Chicago last June where 41 people were shot. Imagine taking a full year of Toronto shootings and packing them into 3 days.

It's likely none of this happened in the areas where you've visited, though, just as you may have seen fewer "beggars" or less "social housing" (is that a good thing?) . What that really means that serious issues like poverty and racial inequality are being ignored or pushed into neighbourhoods where tourists don't typically visit. In Toronto, the poor and marginalized are more closely integrated into the rest of the population, for better or worse.

Of course I'm not saying Toronto is perfect or that we have nothing to learn from other cities like Chicago, which I also enjoyed visiting, but it's important to keep perspective and remember that sometimes what you see as a tourist is a bit calculated and doesn't reflect the whole picture. There's more to being a good city than just having a Disney-fied waterfront for tourists to visit, and pursuing that as as end goal in of itself might not be the best priority.
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Honestly I'm tired of hearing this ... you make a good point so don't take this the wrong way ... but we all know the poverty / crimes issues that exist in Chicago, and we also know these problems tend to be much more isolated in certain areas then we typically see in Canada ... but what's the point in rehashing it over and over again ... rather I think we can make comparisons ignoring this factor all together, or is Toronto so dull that the only thing worth pointing out is this fact (and don't get me wrong this is a very important social issue) but I think Toronto has other attributes that are worth discussing when comparing ...
 
vatche said:
That's a phenomenon typical of American cities. U see the same thing in st pete Florida. Beach drive is beautiful with no beggars. U go 4 blocks up and they're all there. As if the homeless know not to go there. They're either not allowed or the cops push em out when they see them. I don't know.
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Skid Row in Los Angeles. The entire area is purely homeless people. Never seen anything like it before. I don't know how American cities end up with such economic segregation. You'll struggle to find anything like it here in Canada.
 
They've been electing Rob Ford-like politicians for half a century - that's how you end up with levels of inequality, violence, and segregation that defy Canadian social-democratic standards.

I believe the car centric design of american cities also contributes to their misery rather significantly. When I lived in Miami people would happily 'drive around' and 'avoid' "black neighbourhoods", even if it involved taking much longer routes to get to places. As a result there was no urgency whatsoever to fix up these places. Not one well-off person who didn't want to be there would ever have to set foot in the area. The level of isolation was brutal.
 
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