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Toronto/Chicago comparisons

I think Chicago is a great city but I second the criticism of their waterfront. I just don't like it. I don't want Toronto to emulate it. That said Chicago has amazing institutions, museums etc. They just blow anything Toronto has out of the water. But the vast windswept museum campus of their central waterfront is not something I want for Toronto. Where Chicago's waterfront is impressive and functions well to me is north of the Downtown area.

I love New York as well but I think some people's praise of it goes a bit far. To me New York is at times or glimpses magical but most of it to me doesn't particularly work well at the human scale. It really depends what your are speaking about. The range of urban experiences available on this globe now is just beyond the comprehension of any one of us. For me New York suffers from many of the same problems Toronto does. Visiting New York has never made me want to live there. Visiting many other cities both larger and smaller than Toronto has.
 
Softee said:
I think he was only referring to urban vibrancy, street scene and the like.
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you mean Toronto is similar to New York in terms of urban vibrancy and street scene?? In that category, Toronto is still a lot more like Boston/Chicago than New York city. Completely different animal.

Chicago is not Houston. The streets are quite vibrant especially during summer time. definitely not losing to Toronto in this category.
 
bleu said:
nope. Nothing on this continent comes close to be comparable to NYC. Actually, you might put Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal together, and it will still lose to New York City. The only city that is close is London on this planet.
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Talk about delusional.

Size and GDP aren't the only things that determine the value of a city. New York certainly is a great city. It's an old city. And one day, Toronto will be in the same league.

I can't wait to see our city mature, I think I prefer living in a city that has ambitious plans rather than a city that is unanimously lauded as great, anyways. I don't think there's another city that can compare to ours in terms of cultural expression and togetherness. More than 50% of people in our city were born abroad and yet our crime rate remains low. Our yearly festivals attract more people than any other city on the continent.

Almost every festival we have in Toronto attracts almost double it's NYC counterpart! This is what I value about this city. It's culture. And not standing and observing art or history in a museum or gallery. But being part of a celebration of who we are. The galleries and museums will come after.. But I'd take Toronto's cultural expression over anywhere else on the continent any day. Because I truly feel that it's the comfort with who we are and accepting the lifestyles and cultures of others as our own that makes us different.

I can't imagine how all these aspects will grow as the city matures... This is truly a great city.
 
Jaye101 said:
Talk about delusional.

Size and GDP aren't the only things that determine the value of a city. New York certainly is a great city. It's an old city. And one day, Toronto will be in the same league.

I can't wait to see our city mature, I think I prefer living in a city that has ambitious plans rather than a city that is unanimously lauded as great, anyways. I don't think there's another city that can compare to ours in terms of cultural expression and togetherness. More than 50% of people in our city were born abroad and yet our crime rate remains low. Our yearly festivals attract more people than any other city on the continent.

Almost every festival we have in Toronto attracts almost double it's NYC counterpart! This is what I value about this city. It's culture. And not standing and observing art or history in a museum or gallery. But being part of a celebration of who we are. The galleries and museums will come after.. But I'd take Toronto's cultural expression over anywhere else on the continent any day. Because I truly feel that it's the comfort with who we are and accepting the lifestyles and cultures of others as our own that makes us different.

I can't imagine how all these aspects will grow as the city matures... This is truly a great city.
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Well with the crime thing, NYC also has a low crime rate but Chicago has a high one. I think the problem is structural.

I like this description
Here's the thing: Can you really blame the news media in Toronto for putting out a few stories on Toronto's new status population-wise? Yes, it smacks of one-upsmanship, and that's not really very attractive, but considered in light of the fact that Canadians live next door to the nonstop 24-hour Aren't-We-Awesome show, I'd say any perceived crowing has been rather understated.

Toronto takes a lot of flack on this board for not having a readily identifiable indigenous character. I agree that being large and multicultural aren't the sort of unique signifiers that tend to excite the interest of foreign visitors, but my reaction to that as a neighbour (and fan) of Toronto is one I sense many people in Toronto share: 1) the former is true in terms of Canada, and the latter is uniquely true in terms of the world, and these are what they are, and they are what we got, so it is what it is; 2) if these things aren't as much of a draw as having <insert well-known specialty food from a well-known city>, well...who cares?

Because while I think Toronto is one of the most compelling cities around right now, I say that as an urban aficionado, and I don't think it's really much of a tourist draw to your average person out there the way London or Las Vegas is. Or Montreal. But I don't really care, to be honest. Toronto is building up some insouciance cred these days. You quibble about the lack of famous Toronto style dishes? Shrug. Don't come. Slag the place online. Make more jokes about the Leafs. Knock yourself out.

Okay, said insouciance isn't entirely reflected in the personas of some of the posters on this board. Though one does well to recall that this board is not an accurate or reliable reflection of the way people or things are on the ground.

Can Toronto hang its hat on the diversity thing? The answer is yes, because it really does take it to another level. An example is the Downsview Merchants Market:

http://www.thegridto.com/city/places/selling-the-dream/

It's classic Toronto: a massive flea market with 600 stalls in an old military hangar way out in the middle of nowhere that's as ethnically diverse as, well...Toronto. Your average tourist wouldn't have a clue about this place, as you won't stumble across it wandering along Queen West. My wife and I went last weekend to check it out on the strength of the story at the link, and it really was quite something. It's rambling, shambolic and easy to get lost in. You've got everything from your Islamic preacher to your shady cell phone dealers to your German-speaking Korean pastry chef with credentials from an institute in Cologne interspersed among the carpet sellers, the knock-off T-shirt merchants, and the 300-pound Comic Book Guy doppelganger slouched in a leather office chair who seemed more intent on the shoot-em-up video game he was engrossed in than in selling anything. Et cetera.

Without meaning to sound challenging or competitive, and without meaning to start a flame war, I'd sincerely like to know: where else are you going to find something like that? The closest I can think of is London's legendary outdoor markets, and of course they're wonderfully urban and original, and I wouldn't dare compare this place to them. However, I would dare say that the Downsview Merchants Market is something that is unique to Toronto.

It's not a sandwich, but it's something.
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Toronto is safe, it does not take any risks. That can be good. That's also why I agree with bleu.
 
Jaye101 said:
Talk about delusional.

Size and GDP aren't the only things that determine the value of a city. New York certainly is a great city. It's an old city. And one day, Toronto will be in the same league.

I can't wait to see our city mature, I think I prefer living in a city that has ambitious plans rather than a city that is unanimously lauded as great, anyways. I don't think there's another city that can compare to ours in terms of cultural expression and togetherness. More than 50% of people in our city were born abroad and yet our crime rate remains low. Our yearly festivals attract more people than any other city on the continent.

Almost every festival we have in Toronto attracts almost double it's NYC counterpart! This is what I value about this city. It's culture. And not standing and observing art or history in a museum or gallery. But being part of a celebration of who we are. The galleries and museums will come after.. But I'd take Toronto's cultural expression over anywhere else on the continent any day. Because I truly feel that it's the comfort with who we are and accepting the lifestyles and cultures of others as our own that makes us different.

I can't imagine how all these aspects will grow as the city matures... This is truly a great city.
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I don't disagree with you on the good things about Toronto, however, didn't you just prove Toronto and NYC is very different? You admitted that TO is fast growing while NYC is mature.
And this is what I have been arguing here, not which is good which is not, but that Toronto is very different from NYC i most ways.
 
bleu said:
you mean Toronto is similar to New York in terms of urban vibrancy and street scene??
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Yep. Toronto is edgier, hipper, better dressed, more cosmopolitan and quirky than Chicago or Boston by far. The people are better looking, more open minded and exposed to outside influences. It's just a much more interesting and dynamic city. It's a truly worldly city in a way that Chicago simply is not.
 
Softee said:
Yep. Toronto is edgier, hipper, better dressed, more cosmopolitan and quirky than Chicago or Boston by far. The people are better looking, more open minded and exposed to outside influences. It's just a much more interesting and dynamic city. It's a truly worldly city in a way that Chicago simply is not.
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I disagree with this. Quirky. Toronto is bland. It's safe. We have people show up for big festivals once a month. Boston Ill give you because Boston is average
 
Softee said:
Yep. Toronto is edgier, hipper, better dressed, more cosmopolitan and quirky than Chicago or Boston by far. The people are better looking, more open minded and exposed to outside influences. It's just a much more interesting and dynamic city. It's a truly worldly city in a way that Chicago simply is not.
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Oh God...
Fine, keep saying that to yourself. I am no part of this insane self delusion.
 
Softee said:
Yep. Toronto is edgier, hipper, better dressed, more cosmopolitan and quirky than Chicago or Boston by far. The people are better looking, more open minded and exposed to outside influences. It's just a much more interesting and dynamic city. It's a truly worldly city in a way that Chicago simply is not.
Click to expand...

I guess one area where Toronto is like NYC is bragging about how wonderful we are. We may be edgier, hipper and better dressed than people in Boston or Chicago, but guys don't tell Montreal or they'll kill themselves laughing. On the other hand we're certainly poorer on average: per capita GDP in 2011 for the 3 cities was:

Boston $55,985
Chicago $43,223
Toronto $33,405

Here's the source from the Toronto Board of Trade: http://www.bot.com/Content/NavigationMenu/Policy/Scorecard/Scorecard2012/Scorecard2012.pdf

But wait, let's not think about money. Let's focus on culture, the life of the mind and all that non-material stuff. Might we admit that Boston is an intellectual powerhouse with a global reach and Toronto not so much? Or are we really going to pretend UofT and York are comparable to Harvard and MIT? Or check out MFA and BSO and compare them to AGO and TSO.

I'm not suggesting Toronto is all that bad, but I do think our constant obsession with shouting mine is bigger than yours is getting a little tired, and it makes it hard for us to learn from other places with - horrors - fewer people and less self-proclaimed edgy hipness.
 
Softee said:
^ Yeah, for the life of me I don't get for one second why so many people seem to think that Chicago has Toronto beat in terms of vibrancy, street scene and urban bustle. IMO it's no contest, Toronto blows Chicago away in that regard.
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It's not even close, Toronto is an infinitely more interesting city and much better to explore. When you compare the animated, walkable, safe, interesting neighbourhoods and districts we have here in Toronto, with the same in Chicago, Toronto comes out way ahead.

First of all, when you take into consideration that everything south of Chinatown (just south of the loop) is a huge no go zone, that removes the whole south end as walkable areas to explore. Then remove the west side and what do you have left? You have Chinatown, the Loop and the narrow strip north of there. That is not bashing Chicago, it's just the reality of the city and it's not likely to change anytime soon.

Compare that with Toronto and you realize how lucky we are that racism has not had such a dramatic effect on this city. When I walk east of the Don River, I have Riverside, Leslieville, Greektown, The Gerrard India Bazaar, the Danforth (outside Greek-town) and let's not forget the Beaches, to explore. All these areas offer animated streets, interesting stores, as well as nice restaurants and a cool, safe vibe. That's just our poorer east side. We also have the north and west ends that have great, animated areas to explore. For an urban explorer, like myself, that is a huge benefit to Toronto.

When you look at how Toronto developed Regent Park and compare that to how Chicago developed Cabrini Green, you also see where Toronto is outdoing Chicago again. The same goes for how Toronto is developing the West Don Lands/Canary District compared to how Chicago is developing it's new waterfront community around the Prairie District. I think Toronto is doing a much better job and seems to be on the right track. Chicago's glory is mainly in its past, while Toronto's time is NOW! Who knows where this boom will take us? It could just be the start of bigger and better things to come.

And don't get me started about Chicago's waterfront. lol I know I'm the only one defending Toronto's hated waterfront but I'm always ahead of my time, so this is no different. (I prefer the intimate, animated, European type waterfronts, than the open concept, American style) I expect in time, people will come around to my way of thinking, after the "experts" start heaping praise. Toronto's waterfront is not conventionally beautiful but it is diverse, unique, interesting and full of surprises. It's much better to explore and has way more amenities.
 
pman said:
I guess one area where Toronto is like NYC is bragging about how wonderful we are. We may be edgier, hipper and better dressed than people in Boston or Chicago, but guys don't tell Montreal or they'll kill themselves laughing. On the other hand we're certainly poorer on average: per capita GDP in 2011 for the 3 cities was:

Boston $55,985
Chicago $43,223
Toronto $33,405

Here's the source from the Toronto Board of Trade: http://www.bot.com/Content/NavigationMenu/Policy/Scorecard/Scorecard2012/Scorecard2012.pdf

But wait, let's not think about money. Let's focus on culture, the life of the mind and all that non-material stuff. Might we admit that Boston is an intellectual powerhouse with a global reach and Toronto not so much? Or are we really going to pretend UofT and York are comparable to Harvard and MIT? Or check out MFA and BSO and compare them to AGO and TSO.

I'm not suggesting Toronto is all that bad, but I do think our constant obsession with shouting mine is bigger than yours is getting a little tired, and it makes it hard for us to learn from other places with - horrors - fewer people and less self-proclaimed edgy hipness.
Click to expand...

Harvard? MIT? I'd like to know the % of people in those cities that have a college education much-less one from an Ivy League institution. Canada's post secondary system is open to a much wider demographic than those south of the border, and we're a better society for it. The amount of university graduates we have here is more valuable to our society than Harvard or MIT could ever possibly be. Toronto is rich in the most valuable resource you can find, knowledge. And it's only a matter of time before the market responds.

Median household income:
Toronto: $68,110
Chicago: $47,371
Boston: $51,739

Don't we have more tourists than either of those city's as well?
 
LOL. Some posters here are so delusional with their acts of city "fanboyism," it makes me laugh. Yes, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, LA, and Boston are all universally better than Toronto in every way. You keep telling yourselves that :)

I've lived in Chicago and I think people are incredibly delusional because of what they saw in their 3 day weekend getaway. Chicago is in no way comparable to Toronto on many many levels. For one, the population is incredibly divided. There's no synergy whatsoever. The latinos stay in their own areas, blacks stay in their areas, etc etc. There is nothing truly multicultural. Loop/River North/North Loop/Lincoln Park/Lake View are probably close to 100% white. Rogers Park area has some asians because of university residence, but from there on North all the way to Evanston is again almost 100% white and almost completely dead, in terms of attractions (A small stretch of Lincoln Park, near LSD is a small exception). The "hip" areas are full of urban decay (supposedly being "gentrified") in Logan Square, and further North along the I90 corridor. Step one foot south of Division, and you're asking to get shot, even in broad daylight.

Another thing that's really laughable here is praising Chicago's waterfront. Are people being sarcastic?
2s8mz4m.png

Oh yeah, we should definitely be trying to emulate this...

The income comparisons are another laughable statistic. Toronto's PPP actually surpassed Chicago's in 2011, and as in Jaye's comment, our household income is much higher than theirs. This becomes apparent for anyone who has actually lived in Chicago. Everyone outside of Streeterville is poor by Toronto standards.

The last thing that I wanted to mention that no one else has is that Chicago is a very narrow city (the safe, urban area, that is). To go from South Loop to Rogers Park, you have to cover a huge distance. Toronto extends away from the lake as far as it does along the lake (not the downtown, but the "urban" area), which makes things a lot closer to each other. For example, if both cities had urban areas of 50sq km, Toronto would be 5*10, while Chicago might be 25*2, with the 25 being the distance along the lake.
 
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