Toronto/Boston comparisons

[adma]

Sorry if you can't see the genius of the Carpenter Center. If we are to make personal imputations, no doubt you think the Sydney Opera House is worthless because it wasn't Utzon's original plan either.

Honestly: these days, it's immaterial whether the Carpenter Center is genius or a botched embarrassment that led its creator to suicide. It's an architectural landmark, period. (And given Corbu's overall oddness, *anything* of his accumulated past and mythology could have led him to off himself--Carpenter's a convenient alibi.)

Oh, and IIRC Frank Lloyd Wright thought the Guggenheim to be botched in execution, too.

 

[golodhendil]

Are we seriously comparing UofT to MIT and Harvard?

As someone who had/has affiliation with all three institutions, I say yes, go right ahead and seriously compare them.

 

[TrickyRicky]

This university discussion is amusing. I just wish universities here would focus more on primary research and development and less on education. Universities are becoming puppy mills and undergraduate education is the new high school (don't get me started on the extreme puppy mill side of the industry called "international students"). I'm under the understanding that this is also the case in Boston as it is here. The pressure to focus on increasing enrollment is just too great even for the world's top institutions.

 

[Tewder]

I guess the 'puppy mill' thing generates lots of dosh whereas the research thing requires lots?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Care to explain? Because someone is from Montreal their opinion is tainted?

Generally...yes. And kool maudit in particular (I've been around the forums a looooooong time).

The long-standing urge to attribute anything like this to "homerish", "Toronto wannabe", "Toronto has no identity" behavior is directly linked to certain Toronto resentment from places like Montreal, and certain self-loathing Torontonians. It's a special type of resentment or stereotype that is saved only for Toronto...it's ingrained and doesn't stop being an influence for these type of people.

Are we seriously comparing UofT to MIT and Harvard?

Well, I'm not really comparing them at all. I'm not trying to take away the merits of Harvard as an asset to Boston. I'm just extolling the merits of UofT as an asset to Toronto. This does not begin and end with where either ends up on a list that ranks which is "better".

I loathe Merchant-Ivory. Dull middle-brow dross for Anglophiles. (Shudder.)

Careful about protesting so mellow dramatically...I find it is usually due to feeling uncomfortable having their latent homosexual tendencies tweaked after seeing Maurice. Or do you really just hate novels Henry James and E. M. Forster?

Sorry if you can't see the genius of the Carpenter Center.

I do see the genius...I've already pointed it out. You demolish the building, and sell all the little bits at auction and get filthy rich. Doesn't matter what it is...collectors will buy anything. An unremarkable manhole cover was removed from the street in India and sold at auction for $25,000 because it was attributed to Corbusier. I'm not making this sh*t up!!

On another note, Corbusier has been losing cred lately, as designs long attributed to him are now correctly being attributed to the people who actually designed them (i.e. Charlotte Perriand).

(I'm sorry you can't see the humour)

no doubt you think the Sydney Opera House is worthless because it wasn't Utzon's original plan either.

I would abandon any notions of trying to second-guess me.

 

[Ladies Mile]

Careful about protesting so mellow dramatically...I find it is usually due to feeling uncomfortable having their latent homosexual tendencies tweaked after seeing Maurice. Or do you really just hate novels Henry James and E. M. Forster?




I do see the genius...I've already pointed it out. You demolish the building, and sell all the little bits at auction and get filthy rich. Doesn't matter what it is...collectors will buy anything. An unremarkable manhole cover was removed from the street in India and sold at auction for $25,000 because it was attributed to Corbusier. I'm not making this sh*t up!!

On another note, Corbusier has been losing cred lately, as designs long attributed to him are now correctly being attributed to the people who actually designed them (i.e. Charlotte Perriand).

(I'm sorry you can't see the humour)




I would abandon any notions of trying to second-guess me.

As I am homosexual, I am not very concerned with having my tendencies "tweaked." And I admire James--I just don't care for dull adaptations starring piles of furniture.

You other two, ah, points, are not worth refuting one way or the other.

The word is "melodramatically," BTW. Or is that some more of your invisible humor?

 

[freshcutgrass]

As I am homosexual, I am not very concerned with having my tendencies "tweaked."

I pretty much figured that, but I was intent on using that line anyway.

I admire James--I just don't care for dull adaptations starring piles of furniture.

I like some of their films for the same reason most people don't...it's slow and "dull" pace....it's like comfort food. They are character-driven, rather than plot-driven...the acting more theatre than film...low budget and flawless. I prefer watching them eating pork & beans with toast.

You other two, ah, points, are not worth refuting one way or the other.

Ah, ok....but pointing out spelling errors is apparently well within your comfort zone? Ha...I always know I have them when they have to resort to pointing out spelling errors on chat forums!!

And not to stoop (oh fuggit...I love stooping), but isn't you're the word you were looking for?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Ah....while we're on the topic....

Merchant Ivory made a film called The Bostonians. They haven't, nor are likely, to make a film called The Torontonians.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Well Merchant is dead and The Bostonians was an adaption of a Henry James novel...

And I would actually defend Kool. He's typically is only defensive of Montreal criticisms (when they're unwarranted) and more often than not will defend Toronto rather than slag it (which is frankly refreshing for a ROCer).

And comparing UofT to Harvard is, well, homerish.

 

[kool maudit]

Generally...yes. And kool maudit in particular (I've been around the forums a looooooong time).

i guess you'll be furnishing quotes in addition to your vague imputations.

 

[Red October]

I don't know about here, but at SSP maudit as actually one of the more reasonable and intelligent Montreal posters, if not the most.

Kind of the anti-habsfanman.

 

[Ladies Mile]

Ah....while we're on the topic....

Merchant Ivory made a film called The Bostonians. They haven't, nor are likely, to make a film called The Torontonians.

Your point being?

There is a fascinating novel called "The Torontonians" which could indeed be made into an indifferent and pretentious period film if Mr. Merchant were still alive to grace us with his presence.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Toronto, like L.A. presents a completely unique unfamiliar North American model without being necessarily similar. And like L.A. Toronto gets saddled with the same insults, of being soulless, congested, devoid of culture, shallow etc.. The truth of course is very different. They are completely modern cities which don't necessarily jive with the urban ideal of their respective nations. And by modern I don't mean shiny new, as they're both littered with cracks.

The criticisms Toronto receives from the ROC I think have less to do with it being too much like "an American city" or trying too hard to be this "city" and more to do with it being rather unique and unfamiliar to to other Canadians. No one feels a need to compare Montreal to other cities (well except maybe me to Boston) but it's because it's instantly recognizable as a Canadian city and feels instantly familiar. Toronto feels foreign and it's just not its ethnic make-up that makes it feel this way. It doesn't feel connected to the country in the same way Montreal, Halifax or Vancouver etc. do.

While some may say or feel the need to say "hey this is sort of like an Asian Detroit with a touch of Berlin thrown in", it is at its core pretty unique and incomparable.

But because we are in Canada and the British influence is pretty strong, any boosterism from these parts is gonna be met with a lot of side-eye and well, sometimes jealousy.
And it's not like boosterism isn't rife in Montreal or Vancouver or Calgary (none of which strangely enough Torontonians don't criticize) -it's just that in the end there's a little attitude across this not so great nation that still believes the big guy needs to be put in his place -especially if that guy is Toronto.

I used to live in New York and was actually surprised how many of my friends there liked the city -being from Toronto you often get surprised by anyone liking it -and it wasn't because Toronto felt like a home away from home but because it felt different and interesting to them. Sometimes I wish we in Toronto and Canada could appreciate the same view.

 

[kool maudit]

montreal does feel canadian. in fact, nowhere feels more canadian than montreal. i often think of this when people, usually tourists full of guidebook wisdom, start going on about france and paris. the montreal alley with the iron stairs, the green-roofed church/chateau-y institutional building in the distance and the hockey game (par cours) in the foreground is perhaps the traditionally archetypical image of urban canada. one of the reasons i responded so strongly to this place when i moved here in '95 (never having set foot on the island before) was because it seemed, to me, to tie so many disparate strands of what i understood to be "canada" together.*

i am not sure what i think of your formulation in full, otto, but it's interesting. toronto is definitely some sort of crucible, some kind of alembic.

(* western canadians can disagree. i don't feel very attached to western canada anyway.)

 

[freshcutgrass]

Your point being?

I'm not usually in the habit of pointing out what my point is...especially when I wasn't really making one. Was it a compliment? Was it a slight? To whom...Toronto? Boston" You?

There is a fascinating novel called "The Torontonians" which could indeed be made into an indifferent and pretentious period film if Mr. Merchant were still alive to grace us with his presence.

Yes...because nothing conjures up images of Edwardian life like Don Mills, circa 1960.

No....better suited would be In The Skin Of A Lion, with it's more engaging, non-humourus plot of class struggle, where images of the Bloor Viaduct, Harris water treatment plant and Muskoka make for better cinimatography. Or even Cat's Eye.

The latter would obviously need to include a thinly disguised Doug Ford character in the adaptation.

While Merchant Ivory was indeed a product of its tight-knit triple collaboration (I love how all three lived in the same East Side Manhattan co-op). But since Merchant was the producer, it is still possible to replace him and not have it affect what shows up on film, as the writer/director remains. And actors like Anthony Hopkins will still line up to be in their films.

All kidding aside, I do find it odd that you consider Merchant Ivory's subtle exposure of the neurotic underbelly of class structure to be pretentious.