Toronto Bay Adelaide Centre | 217.92m | 51s | Brookfield | KPMB

[Mr.Tang]

I think the reason you see so much work upgrading the older towers is precisely b/c tenants are moving to the newer towers and buildings like the TD Centre and FCP need to spruce themselves up to compete. Either that or they lower thier rates to bring in a different class of tenant.

 

[Filip]

I just don't know ... maybe in the financial industry only sure. Also, Hi-way 7 is getting more and more dense, it hasn't completely moved away from the campus like structures - and the last couple they've built have been more along these lines. I wonder if intensification in downtown Markham will be different.

Also, it seems software companies just love it - large ones, not small ones, as many of those are downtown and have always been.
I guess they key issue isn't downtown verse the rest, it's the rest of Toronto verse the rest.

Yes, big software companies aren't suited to downtown as most of their operations require large, sprawling complexes. I have yet to see a major software company without a massive campus in the suburbs.

I think the trend will keep bringing us new office development downtown as this is what workers want from their companies. No more commutes to the middle of nowhere, but let's live, work and play in the centre.

 

[canarob]

I agree, taal.

Well the growing trend is that workers, especially in certain industries (financial, knowledge-based) are not too keen on working in the suburbs. This is forcing a lot of those companies to contemplate moves closer downtown. I think the general trend of hollowing out the core for campus-styled shlock in the suburbs is dead (and thank God for that).

Who is monitoring that trend? It seems to be an assumption that gets thrown around a lot these days, but I've never seen any data showing that X% of workers prefer to work downtown. I agree that in certain industries and among the under-30 crowd, that's almost certainly true, but given that most of the GTA lives in the 905 and outer-416, one would expect a pretty large proportion would prefer to work closer to home. With regional centres like NYCC, SCC, MCC and Markham Centre growing in size, and with their improving transportation connections, I don't see demand for suburban office space declining dramatically. It might be lagging downtown demand, but that might only be a temporary trend related to the surging financial and resource sectors, among others (app developers, etc.). Obviously an office downtown can draw from a larger pool of workers (downtowners plus pretty much as far out as GO extends), but for certain industries this is not required, espcially if the industries are already established, like the software industry around 404/407.

 

[Filip]

I agree, taal.



Who is monitoring that trend? It seems to be an assumption that gets thrown around a lot these days, but I've never seen any data showing that X% of workers prefer to work downtown. I agree that in certain industries and among the under-30 crowd, that's almost certainly true, but given that most of the GTA lives in the 905 and outer-416, one would expect a pretty large proportion would prefer to work closer to home. With regional centres like NYCC, SCC, MCC and Markham Centre growing in size, and with their improving transportation connections, I don't see demand for suburban office space declining dramatically. It might be lagging downtown demand, but that might only be a temporary trend related to the surging financial and resource sectors, among others (app developers, etc.). Obviously an office downtown can draw from a larger pool of workers (downtowners plus pretty much as far out as GO extends), but for certain industries this is not required, espcially if the industries are already established, like the software industry around 404/407.

That's exactly one of the major reasons why a lot of companies are looking at relocating downtown. You hit the nail on the head! It's GO Transit. GO connects downtown with every corner of the GTA. Assuming you work in southern Mississauga yet your job is in Markham, that will play havoc on your life. If it was downtown, you would be a simple 30min commute with the GO Train to your job. A lot of companies are now taking that into account. Intra-suburban travel is horrid unless you have a car, however, gridlock is reducing the benefits of that too.

 

[taal]

I agree, taal.



Who is monitoring that trend? It seems to be an assumption that gets thrown around a lot these days, but I've never seen any data showing that X% of workers prefer to work downtown. I agree that in certain industries and among the under-30 crowd, that's almost certainly true, but given that most of the GTA lives in the 905 and outer-416, one would expect a pretty large proportion would prefer to work closer to home. With regional centres like NYCC, SCC, MCC and Markham Centre growing in size, and with their improving transportation connections, I don't see demand for suburban office space declining dramatically. It might be lagging downtown demand, but that might only be a temporary trend related to the surging financial and resource sectors, among others (app developers, etc.). Obviously an office downtown can draw from a larger pool of workers (downtowners plus pretty much as far out as GO extends), but for certain industries this is not required, espcially if the industries are already established, like the software industry around 404/407.

I don't mind this idea ... but I personally would much more prefer a centralized approach; Like many older cities have established, but it may not be the future as you pointed out.

But given that one would expect NYCC and SCC to see a lot more construction when there's been just about none - yes there's been a little forced construction in NYCC with hallmark. But SCC, nothing in a very long while.

I work for said large software company in the 404/407 corridor and I find yonger folks would much rather work downtown (this doesn't apply to everyone) but that's not the case for anyone older 30 ... although there are exceptions even here.

 

[Dan416]

In terms of office development, MCC itself isn't doing too hot, but places like the Airport Corporate Centre or Meadowvale are doing just fine I think.

 

[taal]

In terms of office development, MCC itself isn't doing too hot, but places like the Airport Corporate Centre or Meadowvale are doing just fine I think.

Yep I was careful to specfically not mention MCC. The rents are higher and for the time being tenants would rather locate in those other areass anyway. Particularly in newer builds.
That may change overtime - the city has plans to attempt to attract more development to MCC. No new supply generally means little in the way of growth. It's similar to NYCC in some ways in that sense. SCC is even worse.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I dont know, but why do i get the feeling that BAC-2 will be one of the so called three big projects that are rumoured to be in the works.

Canada's largest office market returns to historic norms, with prospect of new development once again circulating in Downtown Toronto

"All one has to do is look at the successful lease-up of the newest downtown office developments, currently 93% leased and climbing. What's even more compelling is that there are now discussions underway that will soon result in the announcement of one, two or even three new office buildings, kick-starting the next development cycle."

More....http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/April2011/26/c6599.html

 

[yyzer]

Good article, AG!.....I like this part....

"In this regard, we are tracking just over 3 million square feet of tenants who are assessing their space requirements in Downtown Toronto, with at least a dozen in excess of 100,000 square feet - an encouraging sign for those with large-block vacancy or looking to kick off a new development,"

Does this mean there is a demand for 3 million sq ft right now?

 

[taal]

Good article, AG!.....I like this part....



Does this mean there is a demand for 3 million sq ft right now?

I actually looked up the definition of 'active tenant mandates' which is what they're referring too ... clearly it's something they coined as the first article that arises on google is the one above .

So I'm not entirely sure what it means. If I were to guess ... it may not mean there is 3 million square feet of 'new' demand. Rather, existing companies that have leases expiring or are looking to move and possibly expand (or even downsize for all we know) are looking for space.


It's also interesting to note how they make a specific point in mentioning the older prestigious office towers are struggling to fill up the huge gaps they have available (as I mentioned CCW has over 400,000 square feet of contiguous space) ... about 40% of the entire building.
Though after checking and as I mentioned a while back - Royal Bank plaza and some of the TD center towers have actually managed to fill up quite a bit of space.

 

[pw20]

Allied's Queen-Richmond Centre and Southcore Tower 2 would probably be the most likely at this point.

Interestingly that leaves the big developers (Oxford, Brookfield and Cadillac Fairview) without a project in the next cycle, unless Brookfield Jumps in with BA2.

 

[marcus_a_j]

^ Cadillac Fairview can possibly build the Ice office tower.

 

[CITY_LOVER]

Interesting news indeed! Office towers (especially large ones) are always the most prized developments (for all the obvious reasons).

If BA2 would be by Brookfield and Ice Tower by Cadillac Fairview, is it Richmond-Adelaide III that would be by Oxford?

I'm really hoping that over the next few years, we see BA2, RAIII, Ice, the site near Air Canada centre (SITQ?), 171 Front St W and 880 Bay (the govt offices) be built....(this is obviously in addition to SouthCore II, Queen-Richmond, and the MARS building on College & Uni Ave).

 

[taal]

I doubt the article refers to MARS as one of the possible next office starts (not saying it won't happen! Just that is a different story and market all together). I also wonder if Queen-Richmond center is even what is being referred too here. It's relatively small (250K only in phase 1) so it may not be.

They may be referring to new towers in the 'core'.


I still think it can go two ways:
1) The older buildings reduce there rates enough to entice their large blocks to get taken
OR
2) New starts occur to provide new space in more efficient buildings.

While it may be a little bit of and/or I think in the short term we'll see one or the other.

 

[interchange42]

Allied's Queen-Richmond Centre and Southcore Tower 2 would probably be the most likely at this point.

Southcore Tower 2 is not only amongst 'the most likely', it is announced and under construction already.

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