AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Berczy is merely "ok" - it isn't great architecture that's for sure. Just because something is scaled appropriately doesn't mean the detailing is of high quality or elevates it to the realm of the good.
AoD
AoD
Toronto 88 Scott Street | 203.9m | 58s | Concert | P + S / IBI
- Thread starter yyzer
- Start date
Red October
Senior Member
It's obviously not a great design when looking at the buildings in general. I include how it fits in with the streetwall and neighbourhood, and its scaling in the "design". It may not be the best design detail-wise, but you can't deny it fits in well compared to some 7 storey wall of glass.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
That The Berczy does not fit in as well as you suppose is something that was discussed at length in that building's thread.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
What about 7 stories of aA glass, a la the podium of say Mozo or better yet, Pure Spirits or Market Wharf? It's hard to argue the contextual value of those projects in historical precincts. Just because something uses a modern vocabulary doesn't mean it misfits.
AoD
Red October
Senior Member
That doesn't look like 7 stories of glass to me.
The reason those projects work well in the neighbourhoods is because they use the brick and brick colour so well in relation to what is all around it. The Berczy does the same thing. 501 just stands out for all the wrong reasons.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The Architect:
You've proved my point - i.e. it isn't Modernism at fault here - it is the use of materials that matters the most in these cases (and you know where I stand on 501).
AoD
You've proved my point - i.e. it isn't Modernism at fault here - it is the use of materials that matters the most in these cases (and you know where I stand on 501).
AoD
bengaijin
Active Member
I'm almost loathe to participate in the conversation on this thread at this point, as it means that I am opening myself up to a shouting match with the high-and-mighty duo of Drag Queen and Shoe, but I'm really a bit baffled by the vitriol being thrown at this tower.
It is certainly not an avant-garde, thought-provoking building that will grace the cover of European architecture journals, but it seems to me to be a fundamentally decent addition to the skyline. The crown, while blatantly referential to earlier eras of tower design, is unique in its context. In my eyes, the particular arrangement of symmetrical and asymmetrical elements seems to work. The base looks workable and contextual. It's pretty tall (most people here seem to like that sort of thing).
All in all, it is fairly conservative - to refer to it as 'Vegas' is simply weird. This is a city that has seen some pretty bad neo-historicist schlock - RoCP, Trump, One King West. I would say that on form alone, this one is notably more handsome than any of those. So why the focused scorn?
As with most designs, this one will be made or broken by materials and details. There is risk there, for sure. But Page and Steele don't always screw up in this regard. Block 32 has been their charge all the way through construction drawings and it is clearly turning out to be a fine tower.
I think there is a place for a tower like this in our city. Peter Clewes can't design every building himself, as much as some forum members might like that.
It is certainly not an avant-garde, thought-provoking building that will grace the cover of European architecture journals, but it seems to me to be a fundamentally decent addition to the skyline. The crown, while blatantly referential to earlier eras of tower design, is unique in its context. In my eyes, the particular arrangement of symmetrical and asymmetrical elements seems to work. The base looks workable and contextual. It's pretty tall (most people here seem to like that sort of thing).
All in all, it is fairly conservative - to refer to it as 'Vegas' is simply weird. This is a city that has seen some pretty bad neo-historicist schlock - RoCP, Trump, One King West. I would say that on form alone, this one is notably more handsome than any of those. So why the focused scorn?
As with most designs, this one will be made or broken by materials and details. There is risk there, for sure. But Page and Steele don't always screw up in this regard. Block 32 has been their charge all the way through construction drawings and it is clearly turning out to be a fine tower.
I think there is a place for a tower like this in our city. Peter Clewes can't design every building himself, as much as some forum members might like that.
Red October
Senior Member
I know it's not, and that was my main comment on 88 Scott, that it was a refreshing change and it's all up to execution and materials from here.
If the Berczy uses high quality materials like Market Wharf then it will be great. If it doesn't, then at least it won't stick out like a sore thumb (just a mildly pink one). Same goes for 88 Scott, though to be honest even if it doesn't use the best materials it will end up more like 1KW, which doesn't stick out that much, than Uptown, which does.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
The two aA podiums you're citing, Market Wharf and Pure Spirit, are contemporary design, not examples of the sort of lazy, generic faux ( it isn't a stylistic match for the adjacent Victorian buildings ... ) which we see at the Berczy. Like London on the Esplanade and 88 Scott, the Berczy looks like it was designed by a marketing department or a committee rather than by an architect.
By the way, has any architect actually stepped forward yet to claim responsibility for 88 Scott?
Tewder
Senior Member
Pure Spirit and Market Wharf are excellent buildings and I'm extremely happy for them, but I don't find the Berczy or London on the Esplanade to be that vastly different, in spirit at least. Though not as modernist in their language they are contextual rather than historicist, clearly. There's room for this in the city and I'm happy for them too.
It's Page + Steele as per the thread title, but no-one from the company has been identified as the Partner in Charge if that's what you are asking.
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wmedia
Senior Member
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
The word you are grasping for, but not connecting with, is loath.
bengaijin
Active Member
Let me try again:
I loathe the self-aggrandizing and pretentious attitude you bring to this forum with every post.
Way to dodge a conversation about substance with a bit of snottiness about style. Predictable.
Back on topic please. Say "no" to spelling corrections and personal attacks.
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