Toronto 1799 St Clair West | 150.5m | 45s | Sequoia Grove Homes | IBI Group

sixrings said:
I hate using traffic as an excuse not to build because everywhere in Toronto can make that claim. However not everywhere can claim to have a row street car and a go stop.

for the record I drive these streets daily so it will effect my lifestyle but if everyone used traffic as an excuse we might as well stop building in Toronto.
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Whether you like it or not, traffic is a key component on a community's livability.

Why would I, or anyone for that matter, live in an area where it unnecessarily takes me X times longer then it normally should just to get to school, work, daycare, recreational events, certain stores, etc? There was a time (aka pre-pandemic) where many people decided to leave Toronto simply because any commute was getting ridiculously long, and in a lot of cases their commutes from outside the city would be shorter compared to commuting within the city. Not to say Toronto's population was shrinking (it wasnt), but there is a very large subset of the population who arent willing to deal with BS commutes, and a transit system (the TTC) which frequently has issues accommodating demand. I'll put it this way, if it takes me ~30-40 mins just to get to Bloor St via Keele there is a problem. A problem that will clearly get worse with a very high amount of density which in my opinion is ill-suited for this area.

Thus the reason you see Keele St for instance which is frequently clogged up in this neighborhood. Same goes with St.Clair with the slow streetcar service which both the TTC and the city continue to cripple to this day.

No one is saying dont build anything here. What my point is, is that the proposed density is far too much for what this area can accommodate.
 
Amare said:
Whether you like it or not, traffic is a key component on a community's livability.

Why would I, or anyone for that matter, live in an area where it unnecessarily takes me X times longer then it normally should just to get to school, work, daycare, recreational events, certain stores, etc? There was a time (aka pre-pandemic) where many people decided to leave Toronto simply because any commute was getting ridiculously long, and in a lot of cases their commutes from outside the city would be shorter compared to commuting within the city. Not to say Toronto's population was shrinking (it wasnt), but there is a very large subset of the population who arent willing to deal with BS commutes, and a transit system (the TTC) which frequently has issues accommodating demand. I'll put it this way, if it takes me ~30-40 mins just to get to Bloor St via Keele there is a problem. A problem that will clearly get worse with a very high amount of density which in my opinion is ill-suited for this area.

Thus the reason you see Keele St for instance which is frequently clogged up in this neighborhood. Same goes with St.Clair with the slow streetcar service which both the TTC and the city continue to cripple to this day.

No one is saying dont build anything here. What my point is, is that the proposed density is far too much for what this area can accommodate.
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Even if this is cut in half it won’t make a difference. One day the Home Depot, Canadian tire, shoppers drug mart, Best Buy, Lowe’s will all be redeveloped. To make your area we set a precedent of 20 floors. So you save 20 floors. But the truth is that another twenty 20 floor buildings are on the horizon.

if we say traffic is a concern then dufferin shouldn’t be redeveloped. Yet it’s being redeveloped. By the way it doesn’t have a street car row and go station.

if we say traffic is a concern then we should immediately stop construction at Humber bay shores yet that place is booming without a row streetcar.

Rightfully or wrongfully there are plenty of places in Toronto with traffic concerns. We don’t have a standard of what is too much. So this is very subjective which opens up every development to nimby criticism in their own neighbourhoods. I do sympathize though.

finally my real problem is that bloor street residents who are more affluent have managed to keep condos away from their subway. The fact that so many applications got shut down at Dundas west is a bit shameful. We have a housing crisis and a transit crisis and those who are already their are hording the system for themselves. St Clair needs such love that it likely will get through in some form simply because the neighborhood isn’t as established (rich) and won’t be able to flex their nimby muscle.
 
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sixrings said:
Even if this is cut in half it won’t make a difference. One day the Home Depot, Canadian tire, shoppers drug mart, Best Buy, Lowe’s will all be redeveloped. To make your area we set a precedent of 20 floors. So you save 20 floors. But the truth is that another twenty 20 floor buildings are on the horizon.

if we say traffic is a concern then dufferin shouldn’t be redeveloped. Yet it’s being redeveloped. By the way it doesn’t have a street car row and go station.

if we say traffic is a concern then we should immediately stop construction at Humber bay shores yet that place is booming without a row streetcar.

Rightfully or wrongfully there are plenty of places in Toronto with traffic concerns. We don’t have a standard of what is too much. So this is very subjective which opens up every development to nimby criticism in their own neighbourhoods. I do sympathize though.

finally my real problem is that bloor street residents who are more affluent have managed to keep condos away from their subway. The fact that so many applications got shut down at Dundas west is a bit shameful. We have a housing crisis and a transit crisis and those who are already their are hording the system for themselves. St Clair needs such love that it likely will get through in some form simply because the neighborhood isn’t as established (rich) and won’t be able to flex their nimby muscle.
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And therein lies the almighty issue: precedent. Allow all this amount of density to happen, then when day comes when all the big box stores will be redeveloped, the developers will start pushing for the same heights and densities as a minimum. Do you really think this area can accommodate another let's say 10 of these developments? Let alone 20? I highly doubt it. And you may say "but that's not what's happening here". Well, that's exactly what will be happening, and it will likely happen sooner than you think at this rate. We're just seeing the start of things, Humber Bay started off in the same piecemeal way before things really exploded.

You mention Humber Bay and we already know the city screwed up there by allowing mass amounts of density into the area without providing any of the supporting infrastructure in the area. As a result, the area has issues that wont be resolved for years, and certain issues will only get even worse than they are today. I'll put it this way, both East Harbour and Humber Bay started off on similar blank development slates. One is being very carefully planned almost in tandem with a private developer (East Harbour). The other is half-being carefully planned while the remaining area was developed like the wild-wild west with precedents, once set couldn't be deviated from and led to the various issues we see with the area today (Humber Bay).

Dufferin St is a different beast, and frankly the entire section south of Eglinton (between Eglinton and King) needs a rethink. It was never designed to be developers paradise from the outset; it suffers from narrow sidewalks, narrow lanes, no buffer between the street and sidewalk, etc. If we are going to see developments take place there, they need to address those issues. The traffic issues on Dufferin, I wont even get started there, the thing is a mess altogether.
 
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allengeorge said:
Sounds to me like the city should be looking at the flood of developments and pushing to increase transit service and immediately reconfigure the roads to make transit, walking and biking the preferred options. That seems preferable to halting density.
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Essentially, I agree with you.

Though, there is something of a conundrum.

IF the province/feds fail to provide the funds necessary for transit expansion (at the level required), and also don't approve tolls, such that the City has no practical means of keeping pace; what do we do then?
I agree that in light of projected growth, we need to building more, especially at locations such as this; yet that is predicated on infrastructure that will support that growth which is not yet in place.

The City certainly can do a bit better, especially on cycling and walking and some small, but meaningful transit-priority gestures.
But the big spend requires a lot more money. Billions, per year.

*****

In theory, what might be an interesting tactic would be imposing an H (holding) by-law on most of the development desirable sites where the express condition for removing that H is transit infrastructure in place.
However, the MTSA rules may preclude that, I'm not sure. The value in the above would not be stifling needed development, but getting well connected developers to apply the requisite pressure to get the infrastructure built that releases the value on their lands.
 
Northern Light said:
Essentially, I agree with you.

Though, there is something of a conundrum.

IF the province/feds fail to provide the funds necessary for transit expansion (at the level required), and also don't approve tolls, such that the City has no practical means of keeping pace; what do we do then?
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I feel like this lets the City off too lightly. Consider what’s happening in HBS: the City has known for years that there’s development there, development has happened, but it has done very little to make transit the preferred option, or reduce the need for trips.

My feeling is that the City does this to avoid taxing/spending money - and so that they can point to other jurisdictions for fault.
 
allengeorge said:
Sounds to me like the city should be looking at the flood of developments and pushing to increase transit service and immediately reconfigure the roads to make transit, walking and biking the preferred options. That seems preferable to halting density.
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This area in particular has exceptional potential for transit expansion. Given a GO station, an Ontario line stop, an extended 512, and a few key road expansions, this area could support enormous growth. Timing is obviously a caveat, as none of these things exist yet.
 
WislaHD said:
Curious to see the documents drop and especially to see if an extension of Davenport Road is on the cards.
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I answered my own question by checking the docs of the neighbouring 290 Old Weston Rd application.

Seems like it is on the cards.

1628956068108.png
 
Ward8 said:
This area in particular has exceptional potential for transit expansion. Given a GO station, an Ontario line stop, an extended 512, and a few key road expansions, this area could support enormous growth. Timing is obviously a caveat, as none of these things exist yet.
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For the record, there's 0 indication at the moment that the Ontario line will ever be extended westward. Let alone even reach the Stockyards neighborhood.

Also, an extended 512 (i'm assuming you mean to Jane St) would do very little to help the transportation issues in the area.
 
If the Ontario line is ever extended west I imagine it will go to Humber Bay, not here.

the st Clair west transportation improvements are funded as a part of the smart track project from my understanding and will be tendered out as one project with the GO station - the two items should hopefully help a fair bit with traffic in the area. The area is never going to be excellent for traffic though.

the transportation improvements do include a decent amount of cycling infrastructure as well, but unfortunately I think that as long as all those big box plazas exist along st Clair the area will be pretty busy with traffic.
 
Amare said:
For the record, there's 0 indication at the moment that the Ontario line will ever be extended westward. Let alone even reach the Stockyards neighborhood.
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I was trying to illustrate the potential of the area with a hypothetical. Yes, there is no plan to extend the ontario line, but there has long been speculation of an alignment that would connect to dundas west station, or another spot on line 2. This site is less than 2km from line 2, or a 2 stop distance. The amount of developable land in the area, including this site, is roughly equivalent to 7 times the size of the galleria development (depends what one includes). My point is, given the right infrastructure improvements, this area could comfortably add tremendous growth.
 
I would say if you didn’t want to be living with condos all to the west of you from old Weston to Runnymede then you should consider when you want to sell and move. They are coming whether one likes it or not. How much is the real question.
 
Just dropping this here.

rbt said:
Moving ahead on tendering Smartrack stations. Some, like Finch will need several years of construction.

"With the agreement now signed, Metrolinx is moving forward with the procurement to build four stations located at St. Clair-Old Weston, Finch-Kennedy, King-Liberty and Bloor-Lansdowne, with the final station – East Harbour – being delivered through Ontario’s Transit-Oriented Communities Program. All five stations are anticipated to be open and operational by 2026."​


"Each station will be managed as an individual procurement and contract, and requests for proposals are expected to be released this August and awarded in Fall 2021."​

blog.metrolinx.com

New agreement with City of Toronto helps bring new SmartTrack stations closer to reality

New agreement with City of Toronto helps bring new SmartTrack stations closer to reality
blog.metrolinx.com blog.metrolinx.com
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Undead said:
Just dropping this here.
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Was going to post the same thing. I wonder if the reconfigured St. Clair underpass would ever be designed to be wide enough now with an island platform with direct connections up to the GO station.
 
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