Tor-Buff-Chester - One of 20 New Megalopolis

[EnviroTO]

But what about the connections between Rochester and Buffalo, Buffalo and Niagara Region, and Niagara and the GTA?

How many Canadians cross the border to work in Buffalo? How many people on the Canadian side would closely associate with people on the other side? What frequent transportation links are there between Niagara and Buffalo? Certainly there is some interaction across the border but it is insignificant compared to the interaction across the boundaries of Burlington and Oakville.

How much of a connection does Boston have with Washington? Or Hamilton with Oshawa for that matter?

Boston and Washington have frequent corridor services by Amtrak and special corridor flights between their airports. The cluster is well connected inside itself with no defined work boundaries. Hamilton and Oshawa are also connected by GO Transit's network and continual built up area. Someone living in Burlington is quite likely to work in Hamilton or Oakville, Someone in Oakville is quite likely to work in Toronto, Mississauga, or Burlington, etc. There is no boundary between these places which creates a barrier to work and social patterns.

Before the wall fell in Berlin, East and West Berlin were different cities. They were together geographically but far apart socially. Economic hubs and innovation come from working together and that is more of a social measure than a geographic one.

 

[Archivistower]

I would like to like Richard Florida's work, but I've read a few of his books and he seems rather silly at times. Putting together cities into "Regions" is quite a bit of fun, but in the end it's an empty premise. It's not just transportation realities that are missing, but also political ones. For all the talk of transparent or reduced borders, international borders are a significant obstacle to overcome if you want to talk about creation of economic regions. I know of nobody in Toronto who has moved here from Buffalo, and no one who has moved to Buffalo from Toronto, for instance. I must know hundreds who have gone back and forth between Vancouver and Toronto, or Montreal or Toronto. Vancouver and Toronto are more economically linked that Buffalo and Toronto will ever be.

I don't know if anyone remembers the "Nine new nations of North America" stuff from 10-15 years ago. Same premise, and fun to play with, but rather pointless. In that version, Toronto and Montreal were in the "Rust Belt" - which shows how dangerous it is to make cross-border generalizations.

 

[Observer Walt]

Archivist: I agree with you insofar as international boundary lines are concerned. For all of the talk about a more integrated North American economy, the border is still a very real factor. It will soon be more so, not less so, unless some people in the U.S. Congress start singing a different tune. I don't think we in Toronto are "integrated" with Buffalo to any great extent. A highway connecting us isn't good enough. Somebody got a little overenthusiastic here, possibly for political purposes.

This doesn't negate Florida's basic thesis. He finds concentrations of what he calls the "creative class", invariably in cities, and analyzes the reasons why some large cities are centres of innovation while others, with similar or larger populations and infrastructures, are not.

I think Florida is well worth reading. Will Toronto ever have the "critical mass" to be in the same league as (say) Boston, one of the most innovative cities on earth? If not, why not?

 

[cdl42]

I wonder what sort of responses you would get from Buffaloians (?) if you asked them how strong the association between their city and Toronto and Niagara was? As for the border issue, recalling past conversations with family members living in border towns, the border becomes a routine part of life, no different than driving the 401 (especially with programs like NEXUS for frequent travellers).

Although I basically agree with Florida's concepts of intraconnected metropolises, in the end it doesn't really have much relevance. He's basically stating "areas of mostly connected urban areas", and is just an exercise in statistics. A far more interesting connection would be how how different cities are interconnected.

 

[spmarshall]

I wonder what sort of responses you would get from Buffaloians (?) if you asked them how strong the association between their city and Toronto and Niagara was?

It's true, in Buffalo there are feelings of strong connections with Canada. WNED advertises itself as Buffalo-Toronto. The Canadian flag flies in front of the city hall and other public buildings and even local businesses. Labatt is the biggest selling beer in Buffalo, and at HSBC arena, it's either Blue or Canadian.

Detroit-Windsor is often referred to as the international metropolis. The Transit Windsor tunnel bus gets good crowds in rush hour due to cross-border commuting. The connections are there.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

The same sort of connections exist with Montreal-Plattsburg NY/Burlington VT, Kingston-Watertown/Alexandria Bay, and Sarnia-Port Huron. I remember when I went to Plattsburg for the first time I was surprised to see a Petro Canada and a Tim Hortons almost as soon I got off the Interstate. You see Canadian flags (and Quebec flags as well), people listen to Montreal radio, etc. When I was a kid growing up just outside of Sarnia on the St. Clair I never thought anything of taking the ferry of going over the Bluewater bridge and spending time in Port Huron. Along the border you do find an interesting, almost unique relationship and understanding taking place between the two countries.

 

[afransen TO]

" WNED advertises itself as Buffalo-Toronto. "

They know where their bread is buttered...

 

[maxy505]

People who live in Buffalo are just known as "Buffalos"

(or they should be)

 

[adma]

Fun? Wow!!!

And believe me, the inter-border connectiveness was even better felt in the 60s/70s, when all young Torontonians knew what "Eyewitness News" and "Dialing For Dollars" and "Rocketship 7" and "Commander Tom" were...

 

[spmarshall]

Re: Fun? Wow!!!

Even in the early 80s, I grew up on Irv's nightly fire count.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Fun? Wow!!!

Windsor and Detroit I can see as being part of a larger unit. Their industries are similar and complimentary and the border is crossed for business purposes frequently. With Windsor being heavy in the automotive industry and Detroit being the Motor City there are obvious business links. Windsor Transit even operates a Tunnel bus as mentioned and Windsor has long been popular as a nightclub destination and Detroit a sports destination. There are many more social connections across the Detriot-Windsor border than there are across the Niagara River.

Being part of a hub of economic activity is more than selling end products. The fact that Coke sells in Toronto doesn't bring the city closer socially to Atlanta but a Coke Canada head office in Toronto does because there is continual communications between them and probably travel as well (although Coke is only one company so that bond is weak by itself).

 

[Darkstar416]

Tor-Buff-Chester sprawls from Toronto to Rochester

I think Colin Vaughan wrote an article in The Star about this a few months before his death. I can't seem to find it archived anywhere though.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Everyone: This is one topic that I had to put my opinions in on. I have spent time in both Buffalo and Rochester and Toronto. I believe that the people in Western New York's Niagara Frontier have much in common with the urban Ontario areas of Hamilton and Toronto than to Downstate New York-namely the NYC area where I am from. I have been told by people that know WNY and the Ontario Niagara Region that the NYS Niagara Frontier and the Niagara/GTA region of Ontario have a better relationship per se than the SE Michigan-namely Detroit area has to SW Ontario.
Buffalo residents are indeed Buffalonians and Rochester residents are Rochesterites I believe is the ROC term. Those two WNY cities are much more midwestern in everything from language accent to attitude-compared with the much-larger and more dominant Downstate New York-again namely the NYC area and Long Island-my native home. Long Island Mike

 

[afransen TO]

Frankly, Buffalo isn't in the mind-space of Toronto/GTA, much less Rochester. Ottawa, and Windsor, though both are farther, fit in much more prominently.

Buffalo might have more of a tug on Hamilton/St Catharines, but this is only about 15% of the GTA/Metropolitan Toronto.

 

[EnviroTO]

Unfortunately I think the border is becoming more and more of a social obstacle than it once was, partly due to increasing security and documentation requirements and partly due to diverging political views at the federal level (at the local and provincial/state level things are more similar).