Time to get rid of the TTC

[JayBeeGooner]

Well, when you use more service, you pay a bit more. What's to complain? Many cities do the distance based fare. To "endure" longer trips, those people choose to live so far from work out of their own volition to buy bigger houses. I think a couple of $ more on the subway is worth it.

Someone in the suburbs is using the same service, and I would argue worse service than someone living downtown. By your logic, a downtowner with lots of transit options(subway, streetcar, bus) should be paying more because there is more service.

This $3 for any trip system won't work well. Monthly pass should be abandoned as well and be replaced with a pay per trip with a monthly cap system.

The flat fare system has been working well for decades. Where you get the idea it won't work well, I do not know.

 

[Electrify]

I have been on other cities' transit systems. For example, Montréal, New York City, Atlanta, etc., but Toronto still seems to provide better service than them. The fares, on the other hand, could be improved by getting operating subsidies from the province and/or federal governments, which Toronto only gets from the city.

In my week in Montreal, I would have to give them props in terms of service. There are definitely functional things Toronto has done better (ex: air conditioning in stations, real time bus info, newer trains, etc), but Montreal has a more focused plan in terms of transportation. Their subway focuses on the inner city and does a better job getting you to destinations, they have far more bus lanes and express/limited stop bus routes, their trains accelerate faster (rubber tires do help, but I have seen trains which have similar performance characteristics with steel wheels on rails), etc. And while it may be superficial, the gorgeous stations really make taking transit a stimulating experience when compared to Toronto's drab ones. In short, not once on my trip did I feel mobily disadvantaged because I didn't have access to a car.

As for the thread topic, in many ways this is an apples to oranges comparison. A rough measure of Toronto's urban area from the western Oakville border to the eastern Ajax border via the lake shore comes in at 88km, while from the waterfront to the north border of Newmarket is 49km straight. Meanwhile from UBC to McMillan Island is 52km straight, and from Tsawwassen to the northern edge of North Vancouver is about 40km. In addition, each of the suburban areas of Toronto are essentially a separate regional district. Translink doesn't service Abbotsford or Mission, with the exception of commuter rail.

That said, the point about connections is well noted. We are trying to fix the fare issue with Presto, though I'll admit in its current stage the cure is worse than the disease. I'm just trying to shed some context as to why getting across the GTA can be such a tedious process.

 

[balenciaga]

Someone in the suburbs is using the same service, and I would argue worse service than someone living downtown. By your logic, a downtowner with lots of transit options(subway, streetcar, bus) should be paying more because there is more service.

Your logic doesn't fly. You pay for the service you use, not the service that is available to you.
I pay for the clothes in the store that I buy, not all the ones that is available for me to buy.

Plus, suburbs are sparse making it costly to provide transit service. If I construct a subway station downtown, it serves 2,000 condo residents nearby within 10 minutes walking distance, if constructed in the suburb, it serves 200 house owners who live nearby. You see the point here? By living in the suburb, one himself makes it harder and more expensive for the city to provide service. You can't blame the city for not providing as much service as in downtown.

Never understand those who decide to move to low rise Scarborough or North York and complain about transit service not as good as it is in downtown, as of the downtowners owe them something. You wanna excellent transit, why not live in denser areas making it easier for the city to provide service??

 

[RC8]

Someone in the suburbs is using the same service, and I would argue worse service than someone living downtown. By your logic, a downtowner with lots of transit options(subway, streetcar, bus) should be paying more because there is more service.

There is more service because there are more riders, and the more riders you have the cheaper it is to run a service. Downtown lines are much cheaper to maintain than suburban lines, and therefore the necessary fare to pay for those services is quite low.

As things stand, downtown transit fares subsidise suburban transit. I don't think cutting transit in Etobicoke is the way to go to fix this problem, but certainly the people of Etobicoke should collectively help out a bit more in funding the TTC if they want increased transit at similar fares.

 

[diminutive]

I'm not sure "downtown subsidizes suburbs" is always the case. Probably on average, yea, but some of the high volume suburban routes don't seem to be obvious money loosers. Lawrence West apparently costs 36k per day to run and draws 22k riders. That's better than the Queen car which apparently costs >100k per day to run and serves about 44k riders. Now, I get that that's not the only issue. Suburban riders may need a subway, which costs a lot of money. There are probably dozens of other variables.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not always accurate to broadly label entire regions of the City as leeches on the TTC. It's hard to get a clear idea of what any given rider 'costs' the TTC based off of available data.

 

[ssiguy2]

Wow, I can't believe how much interest this thread has gotten in less than a day. Clearly I have brought up a topic that people have atleast thought of before.

Despite all the bitching, the TTC offers very high level of local service. That, however, was not my point but rather how the system is so disjointed. The idea of Peel, Durham, and Halton all having several different transit agencies is absurd and that is one thing York Region got right.It is true that Vancouver's Translink is very much at the whim of Victoria just as Metrolinx is to Queen's Park because the provinces hold the purse strings. That, again, is not the issue but simply viewing transit as one particular mode of a transportation system and one that must plan and provide service for all people within the entire populated area and not just within some imaginary boundary. People ussually don't live, work, and play all in the same city or area and transportation must reflect that. It also must reflect the fact that all must pay their fair share and the expense of all transportation must be done by all residents and businesses across the region on an equitable basis, no hoping borders to ecape a transit or vehicle tax.

 

[doady]

Despite all the bitching, the TTC offers very high level of local service. That, however, was not my point but rather how the system is so disjointed. The idea of Peel, Durham, and Halton all having several different transit agencies is absurd and that is one thing York Region got right.

You do realise that Mississauga Transit is a larger system than York Region Transit, and that the TTC is a larger system than Translink, right?

A single amalgamated system in the GTA would never work. The City of Toronto is too elitist to even allow the 905 systems to provide transit service within its borders, it would never support amalgamation.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Nice title, ssiguy2. Certainly attracted allot of attention.

Your idea to get rid of the TTC is absolutely absurd. In years of following transit developments in Toronto never once have I heard anyone seriously suggest getting rid of the TTC. The fact of the matter is that for the amount of funding the TTC receives it is one of the best run transit systems in the world. If I remember correctly the TTC is 70% funded by riders. Compare this to other cities that have closer to 30% customer funding (the rest gov't).

Personally, I have almost nothing but praise for the people who run our transit system. For a very reasonably priced $3.00 fare ($130/mo for metropass), Torontonians get access to a very reliable subway/rapid transit system, a system with 100% integrated surface routes, clean stations, and what is likely the most extensive surface route network in in North America and maybe even the world. Other than some minor customer service and bunching issues I really don't know what more I could ask of the TTC.

Now all of your rage and anger seems to be over the interconnectedness of the various transit agencies cross the municipalities of the Greater Toronto Area. For this, the TTC has no blame and your rage is misguided.Getting rid of the TTC will solve absolutely nothing. Who you should be blaming is Toronto City Hall, Queen's Park (that's Ontario's legislature incase you didn't know) and the federal government.

-Blame them for the horrible underfunding of the TTC that they provide. If they gave the TTC a fair amount of funding the TTC would be able to provide an even better service than they have now.

-Blame them for not building more rapid transit lines across the GTA sooner. The TTC is not the one who pays for the construction of new lines. It is the City of Toronto, Province of Ontario and to a certain extent the Government of Canada. The TTC has been begging for more rapid transit lines across Toronto and the GTA for literally DECADES and until now nobody has listened.

-Blame the City of Toronto and the former City of North York (now amalgamated into Toronto, incase you didn't know) for the construction of the wasteful Sheppard Subway when there were much higher priorities. The TTC was very against its construction.

-Blame the incompetence of the Government of Ontario owned Metolinx for the lack of fare between transit agencies in the GTA. The TTC was on track to deliver their own next generation fare payment system, but Metrolix insisted on ramming the technologically inferior Presto card down our throat. Six years later, the system still isn't implemented

-Again, blame the incompetence of Metolinx again for absolutely ridiculous decision of prioritizing the Richmond Hill Yonge Subway line extension while the line is already over capacity while the Downtown Relief Line was clearly the larger priority.

-Blame our outgoing Mayor, Rob Ford, for delaying the launch of three new rapid transit lines in Toronto.

-Blame the incompetence of Toronto City Council and Metolinx for not being able to raise the funds needed to get rapid transit to all corners of our city.

I think you get the point here. The TTC is not the one to blame for Toronto's transit mess. Too much government and bureaucracy is the reason to blame. Yes, the TTC can do a better job at things like customer service and ensuring our surface vehicles dont "bunch". But the majority of complaints people have about the TTC, is not the fault of the Commission at all.

Now I don't want to play the blame game. I'd much rather get building than fight over who's to blame. But my point ultimately is that getting rid of the TTC solves nothing. The TTC is probably the best thing Toronto has going for it in terms of transit.

 

[Dan416]

I have been on other cities' transit systems. For example, Montréal, New York City, Atlanta, etc., but Toronto still seems to provide better service than them. The fares, on the other hand, could be improved by getting operating subsidies from the province and/or federal governments, which Toronto only gets from the city.

I've ridden transit in Montreal and New York City. I'd say both those cities serve their cities better than Toronto does. YMMV of course.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Your logic doesn't fly. You pay for the service you use, not the service that is available to you.
I pay for the clothes in the store that I buy, not all the ones that is available for me to buy.

And the service suburban riders use is terrible, and proponents of distance-based fare want them to pay more for that service. How's that going to attract riders?

Never understand those who decide to move to low rise Scarborough or North York and complain about transit service not as good as it is in downtown, as of the downtowners owe them something. You wanna excellent transit, why not live in denser areas making it easier for the city to provide service??

?? You think an immigrant family of 4 four on a tight budget should be penalized because they can't afford to live downtown? I make good money, single, and I can't afford downtown! Luckily, I live in good transit accessible area with affordable rent. But affordable rent is scare downtown, and midtown. No offense, but this attitude is problematic. Toronto is made up dense clusters, many located in the suburbs.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not always accurate to broadly label entire regions of the City as leeches on the TTC. It's hard to get a clear idea of what any given rider 'costs' the TTC based off of available data.

Exactly. It's hard to determine what's "fair". A flat fare system is the best for local transit agencies.

 

[datamouse]

The serious financial trouble isn't any worse than the one in Toronto and even Calgary. Those "cutting service from less used routes and adding service to heavily travelled routes" isn't anything new to Toronto. In fact, it happens once every few months every year. It is a big deal in Vancouver because, before these optimization projects, they almost never take service away once they've added them in. Its not like they're running out of money and have chop service everywhere - the overall service still increases. Langley is getting a new commuter route in December; Surrey is getting a new BRT in April or June; Coquitlam is getting a new route serving new residential area next September.

As for Broadway SkyTrain... That project is pretty much still on the drawing board at the moment. I can argue that even the DRL has progressed much further. The main issue is the funding model - TransLink must find their own money to fund their share of any capital project. The municipality does not just hand over money, and the province isn't willing to contribute unless TransLink paid their share. There is no other city like Toronto where the province just hand over 8.4 billions for rapid transit expansion and couldn't figure out what to do with it. And there's no other city like Vancouver where capital projects have to be funded partially through operating budget...

Speaking of Broadway, the City of Vancouver had a presentation on it today.
http://former.vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20121127/documents/rr1presentation.pdf

 

[balenciaga]

And the service suburban riders use is terrible, and proponents of distance-based fare want them to pay more for that service. How's that going to attract riders?

It's not about pay more. It is about pay for what you use and being fair.
Just like you pay more for two cups of coffee than for one cup. Traveling for 1.5 hours on the TTC should incur somewhat higher cost than a trip for 8 minutes. No?

 

[JayBeeGooner]

It's not about pay more. It is about pay for what you use and being fair.
Just like you pay more for two cups of coffee than for one cup. Traveling for 1.5 hours on the TTC should incur somewhat higher cost than a trip for 8 minutes. No?

No. That is the flat out answer. This has been argued to death in the past. It's bad enough a user has to travel 1.5hours on a bus, now you want them to pay more because they cannot afford to live in the core. That's not a good way to attract riders. But I am not surprised why you do not understand. Distance-based fares is the new transit fad. It sounds so cool to have distance based fares, because other cities have it, yet few seem to understand the people we want to be using transit are the ones who live in the fringes.

 

[timeo]

No. That is the flat out answer. This has been argued to death in the past. It's bad enough a user has to travel 1.5hours on a bus, now you want them to pay more because they cannot afford to live in the core. That's not a good way to attract riders. But I am not surprised why you do not understand. Distance-based fares is the new transit fad. It sounds so cool to have distance based fares, because other cities have it, yet few seem to understand the people we want to be using transit are the ones who live in the fringes.

It costs the TTC more to transport a person from Union to Yonge/Steeles than from Union to Yonge/Bloor. Do you agree? Yes or no?

 

[balenciaga]

No. That is the flat out answer. This has been argued to death in the past. It's bad enough a user has to travel 1.5 hours on a bus, now you want them to pay more because they cannot afford to live in the core. That's not a good way to attract riders. But I am not surprised why you do not understand. Distance-based fares is the new transit fad. It sounds so cool to have distance based fares, because other cities have it, yet few seem to understand the people we want to be using transit are the ones who live in the fringes.

You don't need to "attract" riders. Just ask them to pay for the fair share.
It is not like if you charge $1 more for each trip, they would all of sudden decide to pay $20 a day to park in downtown for work everyday.
Yes people living in the fringes need transit more than those in the core, but that is not excuse for the downtown/inner city riders to subsidize them on a daily basis. Did you realise that when you humanely offer them discounted price, those who take shorter trips are paying more than they should? Do you think St Jamestown, Regent Park and UofT students are all that wealthy enough to subsidize those who live at Yonge/Finch Sheppard/Bayview condos?

I am tired of hearing "downtowners are rich latte sipping bastards, just ask them to pay more, who cares" kind of statement. Most people I know who lives far from downtown move there to buy big houses, not because they can't afford living in closer areas. In terms of rents, there is no significant different between an apartment at Finch/Victoria Park and one at Lansdown/Dundas. Low incomers would hardly move so far away because rent is cheaper.