b13
New Member
What we should ask for is to keep some of the money that we generate and leaves Toronto and never comes back!
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notyouagain
Guest
I think all of you are missing the point. A general strike would fail at achieving your objectives because Toronto (as well as most of the large urban centres in Canada) can safely be ignored by provincial and federal politicians. Why are handguns still legal when a large majority of Canadians would favour an outright banning of them? Because such a measure would prove unpopular with the rural vote which carries more clout in Ottawa and QP. We have a structural problem with our democracy and it will only get worse. I'm not sure what the solution is short of launching a Toronto First Party, which would borrow its tactics from the PQ (not necessarily separation but a party centered on parochial issues which galvanize the population).
That's a good idea though it shouldn't be Toronto only. A party that focused on the largest 15 cities in the country could have significant clout.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
^I think it depends on what level government you are talking about. Provincially, I think a Toronto only party makes a lot of sense (maybe even including other cities in the GTA) since many of the issues at the provincial level are Toronto specific. Federally I think an urban party would probably not be all that effective because different cities in different regions face quite different problems and finding common ground would probably be difficult. Personally I have always thought an Ontario Social Democratic Party at the federal would be a good idea since at the federal level the problems facing Toronto are largely applicable across all of Ontario (with the possible exception of Northern Ontario).
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notyouagain
Guest
Ed, I don't think so. They're not all in the same boat. Montreal, for example, because of the PQ's success, is much better off. Vancouver will be much better off than Toronto as a result of the federal seat redistribuion. I think Toronto is unique in the way it's been targeted by both the federal govt (both Tory and Grit) and its own provincial govt. In a minority govt situation, a toronto First party could wield significant clout.
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notyouagain
Guest
Oh that's a brilliant idea. Let's build on the NDP's great success by creating another social democratic party. Sorry about the sarcasm, but this makes no sense. When the PQ were at the apex of their appeal, their issues transcended the right-left divide. That's what a Toronto First Party should try to recreate.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
^Call it an Ontario First Party whatever you prefer. The main point was that at the federal level a Toronto specific party is going to be marginal at best because it will not have on overly large contingent of seats. And since at the federal level the issues that seem to be the primary concern, such as equalization, affect not just Toronto but the province as a whole, it would make more sense to mobilize support from across the whole province and not just one city.
But thats just my thought and I don't really care about the issue that much and if you want to create and mobilize a Toronto First Party I look forward to reading your literature one day.
But thats just my thought and I don't really care about the issue that much and if you want to create and mobilize a Toronto First Party I look forward to reading your literature one day.
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notyouagain
Guest
Hahaha. I deserved that.
JasonParis
Moderator
The PQ transcended the left-right divide because many in both the progressive and conservative camps were also nationalists. I doubt you'd find many nationalists in T.O. though.
Pep'rJack
Active Member
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Saving city begins with citizens
July 24, 2007
by Andres Laxamana
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/238982
Toronto is on the verge of disaster. At least that's what the politicians, backroom decision-makers and the media would like us believe.
The recent delay of the mayor's proposed land transfer and vehicle registration tax and the fallout of threatened slashes to city and TTC services are all a perfect example of how political jockeying and grandstanding have hijacked the real issues and, as a result, the citizens of Toronto are left in limbo without solutions.
Although it is easy to blame those in positions of power, we must remember that first we must cast a critical eye at ourselves and how effectively we support the needs of our city.
It's only by changing our own attitudes and putting pressure on decision-makers that we can create concrete and practical solutions.
Toronto has struggled since its amalgamation and the Mike Harris government's socially regressive and short-sighted downloading of essential and social services to the city in the 1990s.
What I don't understand is why the three levels of government seem to spend more energy passing off responsibility to each other rather than working together to formulate creative solutions to our city's financial problems.
The problem lies not only within the city and governmental bureaucracies, it also lies within each one of us.
Every citizen of the GTA must look at themselves critically. We all enjoy the benefits of a cosmopolitan and multicultural city that is safe, clean and a wonderful place to live, yet there seems to be a great hesitation to come to this city's aid when it needs it most.
No one has any hesitation in taking advantage of Toronto's world-class galleries and restaurants, and premier events like Nuit Blanche, the International Film Festival and Pride.
Yet when a city counsellor suggests a creative idea of taxing the club district, bar owners and patrons – a number of whom live in the GTA – grumble about how unfair this is.
The number of angry property owners who attended last week's council meeting in an attempt to put the kibosh on the mayor's new tax proposal need to look beyond themselves and their pocket books and think about their communities.
If someone is in a position to purchase a $300,000 condominium and drive a $30,000 vehicle, I doubt that the extra paid in taxes will have much impact on their lives.
The fallout? The people in this city who are most vulnerable are the ones that will be most affected by the real threat of cuts to social, emergency and transit services.
I know that Canadians would never tolerate the idea of a fellow citizen not receiving health care. I know that we value the social supports that our society has put into place to help Canadians who are in need.
So why should we be complacent when it comes to the well-being of our wonderful city? I believe that the citizens of Toronto and the GTA care for the well-being of their neighbours. We still have time and we all share the power to affect change:
Lobby decision-makers to put political grandstanding and party politics aside so they can communicate, co-operate and create good solutions for our city.
You get what you vote for – ensure that the politicians you put into office at every level of government make Toronto a high priority.
Resist the instinctive reaction of balking at novel ideas because it means money out of your own pocket.
Think of the bigger picture and how your taxes or increased daily expenses may help the lives of fellow Torontonians who may not be as fortunate.
Appreciate a city that we so often take for granted.
A city as great as Toronto is not free – maybe we should all stop thinking it should be and be prepared to make some sacrifices.
.
Saving city begins with citizens
July 24, 2007
by Andres Laxamana
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/238982
Toronto is on the verge of disaster. At least that's what the politicians, backroom decision-makers and the media would like us believe.
The recent delay of the mayor's proposed land transfer and vehicle registration tax and the fallout of threatened slashes to city and TTC services are all a perfect example of how political jockeying and grandstanding have hijacked the real issues and, as a result, the citizens of Toronto are left in limbo without solutions.
Although it is easy to blame those in positions of power, we must remember that first we must cast a critical eye at ourselves and how effectively we support the needs of our city.
It's only by changing our own attitudes and putting pressure on decision-makers that we can create concrete and practical solutions.
Toronto has struggled since its amalgamation and the Mike Harris government's socially regressive and short-sighted downloading of essential and social services to the city in the 1990s.
What I don't understand is why the three levels of government seem to spend more energy passing off responsibility to each other rather than working together to formulate creative solutions to our city's financial problems.
The problem lies not only within the city and governmental bureaucracies, it also lies within each one of us.
Every citizen of the GTA must look at themselves critically. We all enjoy the benefits of a cosmopolitan and multicultural city that is safe, clean and a wonderful place to live, yet there seems to be a great hesitation to come to this city's aid when it needs it most.
No one has any hesitation in taking advantage of Toronto's world-class galleries and restaurants, and premier events like Nuit Blanche, the International Film Festival and Pride.
Yet when a city counsellor suggests a creative idea of taxing the club district, bar owners and patrons – a number of whom live in the GTA – grumble about how unfair this is.
The number of angry property owners who attended last week's council meeting in an attempt to put the kibosh on the mayor's new tax proposal need to look beyond themselves and their pocket books and think about their communities.
If someone is in a position to purchase a $300,000 condominium and drive a $30,000 vehicle, I doubt that the extra paid in taxes will have much impact on their lives.
The fallout? The people in this city who are most vulnerable are the ones that will be most affected by the real threat of cuts to social, emergency and transit services.
I know that Canadians would never tolerate the idea of a fellow citizen not receiving health care. I know that we value the social supports that our society has put into place to help Canadians who are in need.
So why should we be complacent when it comes to the well-being of our wonderful city? I believe that the citizens of Toronto and the GTA care for the well-being of their neighbours. We still have time and we all share the power to affect change:
Lobby decision-makers to put political grandstanding and party politics aside so they can communicate, co-operate and create good solutions for our city.
You get what you vote for – ensure that the politicians you put into office at every level of government make Toronto a high priority.
Resist the instinctive reaction of balking at novel ideas because it means money out of your own pocket.
Think of the bigger picture and how your taxes or increased daily expenses may help the lives of fellow Torontonians who may not be as fortunate.
Appreciate a city that we so often take for granted.
A city as great as Toronto is not free – maybe we should all stop thinking it should be and be prepared to make some sacrifices.
.
lokyin
New Member
I don't think the issue is that we won't have an overly large contingency of seats. I think having the choice to vote for a popular "Toronto Federal Party" is to let the current big fed parties know that if they're gonna have to get the GTA votes and seats, they're gonna have that much more to prove to us that they're worthy to vote for for the benefit of TOronto and please the GTA people, or else we have a Toronto federal party to vote for so don't expect us to vote for you anyhow
The Mississauga Muse
Active Member
vTO, you wrote:
About a year ago, I'd have agreed with you. No more. Having watched Mississauga City Council in action (General Committee and Council meetings for both Mississauga and Peel Regional Council. Audit Committee, Budget Committee. What I got back from my Freedom of Information requests) no, "1 cent of the GST and $600m uploaded back to the Province. (Actually uploading or more equitable formula would also work)." would not work.
I know this with certainty.
That "1 cent of the GST and $600m uploaded back to the Province" or whatever else formula someone might come up with ---you're handing your money over to people who have no one watching how they spend that money.
Municipal politicians and bureaucrats are have no oversight. Citizens have no idea how well their money is being spent --it's merely on their say-so.
It wasn't that long ago Ontarians voted in Mike Harris because they were sick to the gills of their local governments jacking up scandalous tax increases year after year. There were stories of truly nutzo extravagance at the local level --school boards, councils you name it.
It would be interesting to see how many city councillors from those open spigot days are still in their comby chairs now crying for the provincial government to trust them in spending wisely.
Municipalities have what Ontario Ombudsman Andre Marin referred to as "zones of immunity". Toronto trumpets it runs an efficient fill-in-blank. You can't prove that. Mississauga trumpets efficiency. You can't prove that.
How can you verify that any moneys especially that a depressing portion of any 1 cent on the GST won't be tinkled away? All the while their claiming "We lead Canada in fiscal responsibility"?
About a year ago, I'd have agreed with you. No more. Having watched Mississauga City Council in action (General Committee and Council meetings for both Mississauga and Peel Regional Council. Audit Committee, Budget Committee. What I got back from my Freedom of Information requests) no, "1 cent of the GST and $600m uploaded back to the Province. (Actually uploading or more equitable formula would also work)." would not work.
I know this with certainty.
That "1 cent of the GST and $600m uploaded back to the Province" or whatever else formula someone might come up with ---you're handing your money over to people who have no one watching how they spend that money.
Municipal politicians and bureaucrats are have no oversight. Citizens have no idea how well their money is being spent --it's merely on their say-so.
It wasn't that long ago Ontarians voted in Mike Harris because they were sick to the gills of their local governments jacking up scandalous tax increases year after year. There were stories of truly nutzo extravagance at the local level --school boards, councils you name it.
It would be interesting to see how many city councillors from those open spigot days are still in their comby chairs now crying for the provincial government to trust them in spending wisely.
Municipalities have what Ontario Ombudsman Andre Marin referred to as "zones of immunity". Toronto trumpets it runs an efficient fill-in-blank. You can't prove that. Mississauga trumpets efficiency. You can't prove that.
How can you verify that any moneys especially that a depressing portion of any 1 cent on the GST won't be tinkled away? All the while their claiming "We lead Canada in fiscal responsibility"?
lordmandeep
Banned
I disagree, as long as the city lets say cuts costs they will never give any more money.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Those are really, really excellent points, Mississauga Muse.
I’m very nervous about the city’s new taxing power and all of the fiscal resources they will be handed through uploading (the GST money isn’t going to happen, especially with Harper as PM). It really will take any pressure off efforts to find greater efficiency in government. Municipal politics has the least oversight of any level since the voter turnouts are so low and incumbent return rates are so high. Usually the only times people stand up and take notice is if a policy is affecting them personally (a zoning change or big tax hike) or if it’s a scandal too big to be ignored (MFP, RIM Park). Along with all of this money and power should come extremely rigorous oversight by an independent body like the Auditor General. Municipalities should absolutely have to submit to a value-for-money audit every year.
Premier, mayor moving toward truce
Aug 01, 2007 04:30 AM
Ian Urquhart
A casual observer might assume that city hall and Queen's Park are at war over Toronto's finances.
At city hall, where there is talk that the city is "broke," councillors blame Premier Dalton McGuinty for not reversing the previous Conservative regime's downloading of social programs on to municipal budgets. One councillor even called McGuinty a "coward."
McGuinty, in turn, lectured councillors about the need "to make some difficult decisions that go along with their responsibilities." That was a reference to council's decision to postpone an important vote on levying new taxes on vehicle registration and property sales.
Adding fuel to the fire in a press conference at city hall yesterday, a new coalition of unionists and social activists announced plans to intervene in the fall provincial election to campaign for the rollback of downloading.
The coalition said it "will be demanding that every candidate for provincial election commit to immediately resolving this unjust and unsustainable reality."
Mayor David Miller pronounced himself "very pleased" with the coalition's stance. "It supports a view that I've been expressing for a long time," he said.
The scene seems to be set for a major confrontation.
But, in fact, we are watching a tightly choreographed dance that will likely end in an embrace.
For while previous Conservative premiers (Mike Harris and Ernie Eves) argued that the downloading was an even swap of responsibilities, McGuinty has always said it was unfair – a point that Miller graciously conceded yesterday.
Heretofore, however, the province's own deficit situation has prevented him from taking more than baby steps to address the problem, such as uploading some of the costs for public health.
More than $700 million in spending on social programs (including welfare, disability benefits, and social housing) remains the responsibility of Toronto – that is, of property taxpayers. Province-wide, the figure is over $3 billion.
Now, with the province forecasting surpluses, the pressure is on McGuinty to act.
The offices of the mayor and the premier have been in close contact on the matter over recent weeks.
There have also been broader talks between the McGuinty government and municipalities across the province, as any solution would have to be applied universally, not just in Toronto. Miller himself attended those talks yesterday, along with Doug Reycraft, president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario (AMO).
Sources say that all this is leading up to an announcement by McGuinty in the coming weeks, perhaps in a speech to AMO's annual meeting in Ottawa the week of Aug. 20. Speculation is that the premier will say the government is uploading costs for programs for the disabled as a first instalment on a more far-reaching plan.
Whatever he says, one can count on the opposition parties to say it is not enough, so there is no danger McGuinty's announcement will be overturned by the election results.
Indeed, Conservative Leader John Tory has abandoned the stance of his predecessors on downloading and believes property taxes should not be used "to pay for provincial programs unfairly imposed on a community."
This is not to say the problem will have been solved. There will still be work to do after the election to draft an uploading plan. As well, city council will have to revisit the postponed tax hikes, as McGuinty's announcement will fall short of filling Toronto's budget hole (an estimated $575 million).
But this summer's steamy rhetoric will be replaced by a cooler approach post-election.
I’m very nervous about the city’s new taxing power and all of the fiscal resources they will be handed through uploading (the GST money isn’t going to happen, especially with Harper as PM). It really will take any pressure off efforts to find greater efficiency in government. Municipal politics has the least oversight of any level since the voter turnouts are so low and incumbent return rates are so high. Usually the only times people stand up and take notice is if a policy is affecting them personally (a zoning change or big tax hike) or if it’s a scandal too big to be ignored (MFP, RIM Park). Along with all of this money and power should come extremely rigorous oversight by an independent body like the Auditor General. Municipalities should absolutely have to submit to a value-for-money audit every year.
Premier, mayor moving toward truce
Aug 01, 2007 04:30 AM
Ian Urquhart
A casual observer might assume that city hall and Queen's Park are at war over Toronto's finances.
At city hall, where there is talk that the city is "broke," councillors blame Premier Dalton McGuinty for not reversing the previous Conservative regime's downloading of social programs on to municipal budgets. One councillor even called McGuinty a "coward."
McGuinty, in turn, lectured councillors about the need "to make some difficult decisions that go along with their responsibilities." That was a reference to council's decision to postpone an important vote on levying new taxes on vehicle registration and property sales.
Adding fuel to the fire in a press conference at city hall yesterday, a new coalition of unionists and social activists announced plans to intervene in the fall provincial election to campaign for the rollback of downloading.
The coalition said it "will be demanding that every candidate for provincial election commit to immediately resolving this unjust and unsustainable reality."
Mayor David Miller pronounced himself "very pleased" with the coalition's stance. "It supports a view that I've been expressing for a long time," he said.
The scene seems to be set for a major confrontation.
But, in fact, we are watching a tightly choreographed dance that will likely end in an embrace.
For while previous Conservative premiers (Mike Harris and Ernie Eves) argued that the downloading was an even swap of responsibilities, McGuinty has always said it was unfair – a point that Miller graciously conceded yesterday.
Heretofore, however, the province's own deficit situation has prevented him from taking more than baby steps to address the problem, such as uploading some of the costs for public health.
More than $700 million in spending on social programs (including welfare, disability benefits, and social housing) remains the responsibility of Toronto – that is, of property taxpayers. Province-wide, the figure is over $3 billion.
Now, with the province forecasting surpluses, the pressure is on McGuinty to act.
The offices of the mayor and the premier have been in close contact on the matter over recent weeks.
There have also been broader talks between the McGuinty government and municipalities across the province, as any solution would have to be applied universally, not just in Toronto. Miller himself attended those talks yesterday, along with Doug Reycraft, president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario (AMO).
Sources say that all this is leading up to an announcement by McGuinty in the coming weeks, perhaps in a speech to AMO's annual meeting in Ottawa the week of Aug. 20. Speculation is that the premier will say the government is uploading costs for programs for the disabled as a first instalment on a more far-reaching plan.
Whatever he says, one can count on the opposition parties to say it is not enough, so there is no danger McGuinty's announcement will be overturned by the election results.
Indeed, Conservative Leader John Tory has abandoned the stance of his predecessors on downloading and believes property taxes should not be used "to pay for provincial programs unfairly imposed on a community."
This is not to say the problem will have been solved. There will still be work to do after the election to draft an uploading plan. As well, city council will have to revisit the postponed tax hikes, as McGuinty's announcement will fall short of filling Toronto's budget hole (an estimated $575 million).
But this summer's steamy rhetoric will be replaced by a cooler approach post-election.
JasonParis
Moderator
Good to hear. I really think this should be the issue in the coming campaign.