Throw away buildings - CBC

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, the general public has a vested interest in this - considering the leaky condos saga in BC, chances are high that the government will have to be involved if the scenario of widespread building envelope failures proves true. In the meantime, those responsible for the mess won't be around to clean it up.

AoD

 

[js97]

A little bit of fear mongering... as I posted in another thread, ashphalt shingles, vinyl windows, cedar decks... all need to be replaced every 20-25 years or so. Even Brick homes need tuck repointing and maintenance, driveways resurfaced/maintained. Nothing lasts forever... even concrete parging needs to be maintained/reparged depending on how well it's maintained.


That being said, I still wouldn't 'invest' in city place lol...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think the issue isn't the need for replacing the windows as an eventuality (nothing lasts forever) but that the failures might occur way earlier than expected.

AoD

 

[beaconer]

I agree that glass as a facade is inefficient, and an inferior insulator compared to other materials, that's quite obvious. I am in total agreement there. I'm not trying to argue against that.

I am however, criticizing how the argument is being presented.

See here the (editorial) title of this feature:

-"Throw-away buildings:"

-"The slow-motion failure of Toronto's glass condos"

-"Toronto's Glass Condos Face Short Lifespan, Experts Say"

Failure?

Throwaway?

Lifespan?

What does that impression leave you with?

Well here was a thread title from this forum by a poster before it got merged into this thread:

"Toronto's new Condos will all be junk in 5 to 10 years!"

Can you say that this reporting angle does an effective job of conveying condo glass inefficiency when it leaves this type of impression?

To counter,

Two real life examples of glass facades were presented in this thread that demonstrated a lifespan of 40-50 years, a doubling of their estimate of their most conservative estimate of 20-25 years.

Take a walk through the financial core and you would see a majority of office buildings with glass skins that are well beyond 25 years old. Multiply that by all the number of cities that also have the same atrtibutes, and you have a very large sample set that demonstrates that many glass buildings have surpassed a 25 year lifespan. These buildings are not throw away, they have not failed and they have been profitable for their owners.

Contrast that to so far what they have reported. The strongest real life examples/evidence so far has been a lawsuit against Cityplace/Concord (I personally wouldn't buy from them if they built in granite!), whose history here is well known, and making inference to exploding glass balconies (which is totally unrelated). Can you see the gap in reporting analysis here? What other real world Toronto example have they provided except for theoretical? Mind you I do not discount the theoretical examples(ie. the glass animations, the PDF papers, the engineers etc) at all, again, I found it to be compelling and educational.

I'm just asking for Fair and Balanced reporting.

That is all, lol.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

beaconer:

Two real life examples of glass facades were presented in this thread that demonstrated a lifespan of 40-50 years, a doubling of their estimate of their most conservative estimate of 20-25 years.

I think one has to be careful in using high quality commericial/institutional glazing as a comparator for the window walls system used in the residential sector. Besides, I don't believe anyone said anything about the estimate of the lifespan for the formentioned as in the 20-25 range; plus the two examples you've listed are single paned, which are different from sealed double paned units.

AoD

 

[beaconer]

beaconer:

I think one has to be careful in using high quality commericial/institutional glazing as a comparator for the window walls system used in the residential sector. Besides, I don't believe anyone said anything about the estimate of the lifespan for the formentioned as in the 20-25 range; plus the two examples you've listed are single paned, which are different from sealed double paned units.

AoD

Fair enough, yes I agree it is comparing two different things, and it may not be demonstrative of todays modern glass used in condos.

However, I ask out of ignorance, which would be superior, 40-50 year old commercial high grade vs todays residential medium grade?

Further, I believe that the feature does allude to commerical towers as well.

 

[Chuck]

Lol well the thing is everybody, condo boards have relief funds worth 10s if not 100s of millions of dollars these days, so really, if something does "fail" in the future, they'll be able to afford to repair or replace whatever has failed.

I'd really like for someone to calculate the total value of the reserve funds held by condo boards in Toronto today, I'm sure it would be a very interesting and shocking number.

As long as someone is living, paying-for, and caring-for one of the thousands of new properties in the City of Toronto, there will be no condo crisis. Goddamn media.

Ha! I sometimes prepare reserve funds on behalf of condos, and many condo corps are poorly managed and broke. There is no 'millions of dollars' in the bank, and for a typical condo around the 15 year mark, they face annual increases that exceed inflation by many multiples.

It would be absolutely correct to state that new houses face similar problems in terms of quality of construction. The difference though is that home maintenance is up to the individual, while condo maintenance is up to the collective. If your window fails in a condo, you usually have no say in when the window is replaced, and what it is replaced with.

We have a condo industry that is completely geared toward getting rich quick. Developers have little responsibility 2 years after the building is completed, investors get first dibs on the best units, and they often sell their units long before maintenance problems arise. It ends up being the average Joe who is left to pick up the pieces 15 years later, which is I think that if you are going to live in a condo, either rent or sell before the 10th birthday.

 

[Tuscani01]

I'm with EMP on this. The point isn't that windows fail. It's that they provide little insulation value when working, and almost none after they fail. If all of the exterior walls are window, there's virutally no insulation value in the building.

Canada has an extreme climate that requires cooling in summer and heating in winter. Energy prices are climbing rapidly, and local citizens resist bringing any new source on stream. It seems mad to keep building glass houses in this reality. No one needs entire walls of glass to have a pleasant living space.

I think it's fairly likely that today's condo buyers will be real estate financial fashion victims 20 years from now. The tower renewal program of the 2030s may involve retrofitting the glass towers with real walls.

Well then its a good thing only 1 wall in most condo's is an exterior wall. Seriously, this whole argument is junk. If each condo unit were a single family dwelling unit, there would be just as much, if not more windows. Every bathroom would likely have its own window, as would a den, and the kitchen.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Floor-to-ceiling glass walls heat up and swell in the summer, freeze and contract in winter, and shift with the wind, engineers say. The insulating argon gas between the panes escapes, the seals are breached and the windows are rendered useless against the city’s weather.

That's true of all residential windows, though, not just those in condos. Everything has a life cycle. One of the windows in my Winter Palace in Riverdale is about 30 years old, the space between the glass is developing a blotchy skin disease, and the window will have to be replaced next year. This year I replaced two skylights, which were about 30 years old, and I had four layers of the main flat roof ( going back to the original 1908 roof ) stripped off down to the boards and replaced with a new one. It isn't just condominiums that require upkeep, nor should it be a surprise that condos will require occasional upkeep to see them through the next 30 years until improvements are needed again.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I would say your have rather high quality windows - the double pane ones at my place were replaced about 10 years ago due to gasket failures - and at that time they're barely 15 years old. Ditto the roof - clearly the worksmanship and material quality of new subdivision houses are wanting.

AoD

 

[AKS]

I'm surprised no one mentioned World Trade Centre. It was built in 1990 and still standing. I don't know if the windows have been changed but it still seems to be in good shape. 21 years old already.

As for energy efficiency. I read on a forum someone mentioned about having floor to ceiling windows. I was searching for reason for condensation. It seems the person mentioned he had an energy audit and he had issues with condensation. The auditor said it was energy compliant. So glass in condos are no different than glass in houses. At first I considered the condensation was due to poor construction, however it seems not after some reading from posters. It has to do with humidity and temperature balance or something. Someone wrote a huge long post on it. I just got dizzy reading all the numbers.

For those interested in reading Oberon's explanation.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/doors-windows/362701-condensation-inside-windows.html

 

[thecharioteer]

I'm surprised no one mentioned World Trade Centre. It was built in 1990 and still standing. I don't know if the windows have been changed but it still seems to be in good shape. 21 years old already.

Even older is one of Toronto's first condos, 110 Bloor, completed (according to Emporis) in 1980, 32 years ago.

 

[CapitalSeven]

If each condo unit were a single family dwelling unit, there would be just as much, if not more windows. Every bathroom would likely have its own window, as would a den, and the kitchen.

There's certainly some truth to that argument. It depends on the shape of the building and the unit. For a long narrow unit with glass at one end, a wall of glass is not unreasonable. But I've seen crazy floorplans with 2 walls of glass in a bedroom, close to 200 square feet of it. The condo I own has about 1/4 to 1/3 that much glass in the bedrooms, facing north, and they still seem very bright. All of the windows failed about 10-12 years ago and the corporation hasn't got around to replacing them yet. The heat just sails out of the place and the noise sails in. I'd favour replacing a few of the window panels with wall.

 

[bigkiwibird]

I'd look towards Pittsburgh's PPG Place (1984) for inspiration that these glass building will not necessarily fail in short time. I have never heard of any issues in that structure. Similar climate to Toronto's as well. I think there is more than the fact that the walls are glass that is at play here.

 

[EMP1729]

PPG has a glass exterior, but it is separated from the interior wall. This isn't the same construction as a residential condo in Canada built in the last 5 years or so (this problem isn't exclusive to Toronto)

In addition, PPG is a glass manufacturer. Of course they would want a building made of glass, showcasing their most efficient product. That building has a pretty high tech heating and cooling system - something a residential condo couldn't afford.