The Toronto Tree Thread

[vic]

Yesterday on my block of Symington Ave., The City (presumably) planted at least two front yard trees. A maple in my neighbour's front yard, and an oak further down the block. Cool!

My wife spoke to the neighbour today, and apparently they didn't actually request it! They're cool with having it at least. We're just kind of surprised that the City planted front yard trees without notice. Is that common?

There's also another house where it seems like they started to dig a hole to plant a tree, but filled it back in and threw down some grass seed.

Wish they did this to some of the recently-paved front yards.

 

[smably]

My wife spoke to the neighbour today, and apparently they didn't actually request it! They're cool with having it at least. We're just kind of surprised that the City planted front yard trees without notice. Is that common?

Yes! I'm a few streets east of you, but the city has done the same thing on my street. I believe that Urban Forestry will look for areas that are deficient in street trees and preemptively plant them to fill in the gaps in the canopy.

After I moved into my house, my neighbours told me that the previous owners didn't want a tree and killed the last two trees the city planted by pouring vinegar on them. The city kept coming back every year to replace them, and fortunately they planted a lovely magnolia a few months after I moved in, which I've been taking good care of.

 

[Northern Light]

Yesterday on my block of Symington Ave., The City (presumably) planted at least two front yard trees. A maple in my neighbour's front yard, and an oak further down the block. Cool!

My wife spoke to the neighbour today, and apparently they didn't actually request it! They're cool with having it at least. We're just kind of surprised that the City planted front yard trees without notice. Is that common?

There's also another house where it seems like they started to dig a hole to plant a tree, but filled it back in and threw down some grass seed.

Wish they did this to some of the recently-paved front yards.

Yes! I'm a few streets east of you, but the city has done the same thing on my street. I believe that Urban Forestry will look for areas that are deficient in street trees and preemptively plant them to fill in the gaps in the canopy.

After I moved into my house, my neighbours told me that the previous owners didn't want a tree and killed the last two trees the city planted by pouring vinegar on them. The city kept coming back every year to replace them, and fortunately they planted a lovely magnolia a few months after I moved in, which I've been taking good care of.

Without any notice is highly unusual from my experience. However, you do not need to request a tree in many areas.

What @smably outlined is the procedure in many areas, but what has normally happened in the past is that you get a notice from the City saying something to the effect of "The City of Toronto had determined your frontage is appropriate for a tree; we have selected a ' (insert species here) for your property, if you disagree with this choice please contact so and so..

If they've given up on notice entirely that's interesting, and surprising.

I will say, forestry has always had complaints about no notice given when they use 'negative option' planting.

They're adamant that people are seeing the note, think its junk mail and just toss it out, not realizing its their official notice.

***

Here's the official procedure, I just looked it up, it hasn't changed:

 

[vic]

Thanks. With the amount of stuff that ends up in our mailboxes, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a missed notice.

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks. With the amount of stuff that ends up in our mailboxes, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a missed notice.

I haven't had one myself; or looked at one for that matter, though I probably should.

But I'm given to understand they're the size of a postcard or one of those 'do not disturb' door hangers in a hotel.

Similar to the post-planting notice:

Source: https://media.blogto.com/uploads/20....jpg?w=1400&cmd=resize&height=2500&quality=70

 

[Northern Light]

Just a single pic of some street trees I saw yesterday that were doing very well, these are on Jarvis, just north of the rail corridor, west side:

These are Elms, and as you can see they are just reaching the 4th floor of the adjacent building now. This is the Market Wharf condo, so these were planted ~2013. They're probably about 15 years old. Not bad!

 

[Admiral Beez]

Several rotted out trees came down in my neighbourhood last night. Assuming these were not city-owned trees, even if the homeowner had wanted to take them down it's a costly process of inspections and applications. My Mother-in-Law lives in the Beach(es) and has a huge oak on her front garden that is leaning towards the neighbour's place. She keeps having it inspected and the city says it's fine, but we can all see it leaning and also see the carpenter ants moving in and out.

 

[Northern Light]

A post less about a tree, than what's clinging to it.....

A farmer in southern Ontario found poison ivy up a dead ash tree on his property, as vines have been known to do............but its not so often you see that the vine has climbed 20.75M or over 68 feet high.

The above tree in the centre of the photo is entirely dead, all of its leaf cover is poison ivy.

Photo sourced from story, here: https://www.guinnessworldrecords.co...-he-discovers-tallest-poison-ivy-plant-750701

 

[lenaitch]

Wow, I've never seen Poison Ivy that extensive. Actually, I'm not sure I knew it was a climber.

'Wild Grape' on the other hand, can be a scourge. It has killed or misshapened many a tree.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wow, I've never seen Poison Ivy that extensive. Actually, I'm not sure I knew it was a climber.

I used to joke to my young kids, "leaves of three, roll on me".

Now, if only we could decide if Dora was undocumented.

 

[jje1000]

Interesting discussion on non-native North American trees like Black Locusts and Catalpas:

I saw this in an article “Some have questioned whether the Northern Catalpa is an invasive species outside of its natural range. Sue Sweeney deals with the issue in a 2005 article on the Ontario Trees and Shrubs website. She muses: “How come the Northern Catalpa is built to withstand the -30F temperatures in Montreal, if its original range was only in the southern Mississippi Valley? The Black Locust may be similarly situated. Many say the Black Locust (is) an invader in the Northeast, but geologists have found that Black Locust was here before the Ice Age. So, the Black Locust is only reclaiming its original territory. Is the same true of the Catalpa?””

it's an interesting concept and I have always suspected that the small region of the Mississippi Valley that is considered the native range of catalpas was just its refuge from the glaciers. However, it makes no sense to consider what MIGHT have been growing here before the glaciers. If we do, then do we keep going back in time? When the dinosaurs roamed what is now Ontario the vegetation was very different than now. The last major glaciation wiped the slate clean and, in my opinion, anything that moved back in between then and when Europeans arrived should be considered the native species of this region. Therefore, we would exclude catalpas and black locust from the native plants list of Ontario.

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With the state of the world right now, most of us want to do the right thing. “Native plant” has a motherhood ring about it. But Belinda cautions us that it isn’t always easy to know what that means. Some plants have been naturalized so long in North America, it’s hard to know if they pre-dated European arrival.

Besides, she asks, how long does a plant have to be here before it’s native – since the last glaciation? She cited Robinia pseudoacacia or black locust, which they’re now finding pre-Ice Age evidence of in our region. It didn’t renaturalize quickly after the ice disappeared. But because it was reintroduced by man, it’s now labelled aggressively invasive. Is it a native?

Native plants: Prepare to do some thinking – Toronto Gardens

www.torontogardens.com

Black locust was part of the southern Ontario biome during the last Pleistocene interglacial period – about 125,000 years ago. Fossil remains of R. pseudoacacia were found in Don Valley sediments in the first half of the 1900s.

https://www.fhso.ca/media/forestory/fhso_journ_vol_10_iss_1_spring_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3ENrcwI8THPZE7ywAOfqU-Ywbs2xz95Wawk9iYFbXimURM-13-8s__exk

Considering North American regional species, is 'native' ultimately from a temporal Euro-centric perception, crystallised within these last two centuries (and especially only after wide areas of undocumented wilderness had already been cleared)?

In Arboretum America (University of Michigan Press, 2003), Diana Beresford-Kroeger argues that at a time of climate change, the Northern Catalpa extends nature’s food basket northward because of its bountiful flowers and fruit. The pattern of migration changes with global temperature fluctuations, she points out. “This is presently seen in European bird populations. Bird habitat is changing with an average temperature change of 3.6F (2C) per one hundred years. Catalpas will keep pace with the needs of moving bird and beneficial insect populations.”

Beresford-Kroeger notes that the timing of the bloom makes a Catalpa especially valuable to these populations, coming when the main flush of other flowers is over, and extending the season of protein-rich pollen and sugar for summer replacement broods.

Wonderful, glorious, stunning Catalpa - Return of the Native Consulting

There is no more glorious sight in these parts than a Northern Catalpa in full bloom. This week was the peak of flowering for this tropical tree that has adapted to our northern climate. The first clue is the fragrance wafting over the sidewalk. Like a bee seeking nectar, you follow the trail...

www.returnofthenative.ca

An interesting consideration as ecosystems are always in flux- if a non-native tree provides utility to our other native species, could it be considered beneficial in spite of its label?

 

[Northern Light]

Interesting discussion on non-native trees like Black Locusts and Catalpas:

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Native plants: Prepare to do some thinking – Toronto Gardens

www.torontogardens.com

Is 'native' ultimately from a temporal Euro-centric perception, crystallised within these last two centuries?

Wonderful, glorious, stunning Catalpa - Return of the Native Consulting

There is no more glorious sight in these parts than a Northern Catalpa in full bloom. This week was the peak of flowering for this tropical tree that has adapted to our northern climate. The first clue is the fragrance wafting over the sidewalk. Like a bee seeking nectar, you follow the trail...

www.returnofthenative.ca

Interesting consideratio as ecosystems are always in flux- if a non-native tree provides utility to our other native species, could it be considered beneficial in spite of its label?

I think any reference to what species may have been present pre-glaciation is profoundly silly.

The point of defining native/non-native in the context of ecology isn't a historical artifact.

Rather its to note what is a host plant for insects, animals, lichens, mosses, fungi etc

What is a food source for insects, animals, lichens mosses, fungi etc.

What will prey on this plant?

Will the plant have an unfair advantage over native species adapted to this area which will result in its proliferation at the expense of native species, possibly competing other plants to extinction, and in turn having cascading effects.

The issue is not the natural migration of plant or animal species over centuries or millennia, its the comparatively sudden introduction of a species w/o the other eco-system elements that have developed with it.

There is no known native insect or disease that threatens European Purple Loosetrife, Dog Strangling Vine or Ginkos.

The latter, are not considered invasive though, at this time, as they have not shown a significant likelihood to reproduce.

The former, and considered invasive, because they can aggressively wipe out entire native eco systems, killing off native plants, and the insects, the birds who prey on those, and the animals who prey on those.

***

In addition, non-native plants, particularly if brought directly from their home region, may also bring pests/diseases for which our native plants have no immunity or defense.

Dutch Elm Disease was such an example, Emerald Ash Borer, Asian-Long Horned Beetle and many more.

The first two of those literally wiped out millions of trees, while the latter would be in tens or hundreds of thousands.

***

The notion that that invasiveness is some sort of cultural thing, which one can value or not just beyond the pale and without scientific foundation.

Non-native plants which are not invasive are considered 'ornamental' and that is generally fine; though w/the caveat I would want to see such plants grown from seed in North America rather than being imported w/soils and potential stowaways. (insects/fungi/disease.)

 

[jje1000]

I think any reference to what species may have been present pre-glaciation is profoundly silly.

The point of defining native/non-native in the context of ecology isn't a historical artifact.

Rather its to note what is a host for plant for insects, animals, lichens, mosses, fungi etc

What is a food source for insects, animals, lichens mosses, fungi etc.

What will prey on this plant?

Will the plant have an unfair advantage over native species adapted to this area which will result in its proliferation at the expense of native species, possibly competing other plants to extinction, and in turn having cascading effects.

The issue is not the natural migration of plant or animal species over centuries or millennia, its the comparatively sudden introduction of a species w/o the other eco-system elements that have developed with it.

There is no known native insect or disease that threatens European Purple Loosetrife, Dog Strangling Vine or Ginkos.

The latter, are not considered invasive though, at this time, as they have not shown a significant likelihood to reproduce.

The former, and considered invasive, because they can aggressively wipe out entire native eco systems, killing off native plants, and the insects, the birds who prey on those, and the animals who prey on those.

***

In addition, non-native plants, particularly if brought directly from their home region, may also bring pests/diseases for which our native plants have no immunity or defense.

Dutch Elm Disease was such an example, Emerald Ash Borer, Asian-Long Horned Beetle and many more.

The first two of those literally wiped out millions of trees, while the latter would be in tens or hundreds of thousands.

***

The notion that that invasiveness is some sort of cultural thing, which one can value or not just beyond the pale and without scientific foundation.

Non-native plants which are not invasive and considered 'ornamental' and that is generally fine; though w/the caveat I would want to see such plants grown from seed in North America rather than being imported w/soils and potential stowaways. (insects/fungi/disease.)

Thanks for the essay, but I was thinking more about the two regional 'native-adjacent' trees as mentioned above in the discussion, not species not present on our continent.

I.e. Black Locust whose northern range is just a few latitudes south of Ontario.

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks for the essay, but I was thinking more about regional 'native-adjacent' species as mentioned above, not species not present on our continent.

I.e. Black Locust whose northern range is just a few latitudes south of Ontario.

No need for snark.

I read the links you supplied, not your mind; and they reference species naturalized from other continents.

The issue still applies in North America, though the risk profile is lower vs off-continent species.

Regional plant diseases affect oak trees, for instance, (oak wilt) have just arrived in southern Ontario, from the U.S. This is almost certainly a function of plants being moved cross-border in the nursery trade, which is common.

Likewise our hemlocks face a serious threat which has also migrated from the U.S; probably, but not necessarily in a similar fashion.

Assorted pests, may, in some cases also hitch rides on cars/trucks, via birds (eaters of seed spread in their excrement) etc.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Wow, I've never seen Poison Ivy that extensive. Actually, I'm not sure I knew it was a climber.

'Wild Grape' on the other hand, can be a scourge. It has killed or misshapened many a tree.

Neither have I for Ontario though. While visiting a friend in Massachusetts I couldn't help noticing how many tall trees were lush and green until I got a closer look, they were all covered with climbing Poison Ivy and slowly choking off the trees as they climbed higher up. That friend also complained and commented how every year he and others in the area hire contractors to clear cut all the low lying brush on their properties to control the Poison Ivy which usually takes over by the end of the summer. Something you would never see here in Ontario.

On the topic of pests, the latest pest that is invading is the Spotted Lanternfly (Lycorma delicatula). I learned of this pest from a fig growing hobby forum, the insect has significantly expanded it's invasion area over the past year. If spotted it is advised to kill them on the spot.