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The difference between Canada and the US in this recession

Harper wouild love Canadians to believe that we are so much better off here in Canada than the rest of the world and the US but in fact we are in a "sit and wait" position as we wait for our American cousins to decide who gets what and why and it doesn't feel good on the ground knowing that Canadian interests are not always factored into these decisions.
We need a leader in Canada and not a puppet of more powerful people outside our Country.

As far as Keithz continuously opining about what I think and that I don't have evidence for what I type......The most recent information I disclosed on this site about the Sea King helicopters comes directly from Chretien.....pg 54 "My Years as Prime Minister. Personal attacks are such a bore.

Another jade_lee classic. Off topic. No evidence. Last para does not even pertain to this thread. And too top off everything, there's ac accusation about a personal attack for posts that point out jade_lee's ineffectual reasoning and arguments. Queue next post to include some combination of Bush, Harper, Conservatives, neo-cons and now apparently KeithZ!


Don't feed the troll...

Virtually everybody on here agrees the individual in question is a troll, yet nobody sees fit to do something about it. Sad. I was told once, that trolling was an offence. From the reception said individual has gotten, guess that's not the case on UT. Perhaps we should create a jade_lee thread. Give him/her a thread so that they can express their rant of the day while the rest of us have some real discussions.
 
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I have been following the US budget deliberations somewhat. There is something remarkably striking there. Obama has no serious plan to get out of deficit any time soon.

This has major implications for Canada. The Ontario budget showed the marginal tax rate on new investment reducing about two-thirds of the rate of the US. I am hoping that this is the beginning of a trend of Canada maintaining a solid competitive edge on the US. As it stands, Canada and Ontario in particular are going to become some of the most attractive jurisdictions in North America to invest in the years ahead. Does anyone think this trend might reverse? I would also ask, what can be done to maintain that edge in the long run?
 
jade_lee,

My first question for you is: what does this link have to do with the thread topic?

My second question is: can you provide a clear and concise synopsis concerning the content and main points of the article you posted, and why you think it is relevant?
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2009/03/the_best_prepared_awar.html

The best prepared award
Post categories: G20

Stephanie Flanders | 12:12 UK time, Tuesday, 31 March 2009

I know you can't bear the suspense. The award for "Best Prepared Country Going Into the Crisis" goes to... Canada. And what a goodie-two-shoes economy it turns out to be.

The more you look at this country's numbers, the more you understand why Gordon Brown relegated Canada to "second tier" status in the diplomatic preparations for the Summit. It was the only bit of one-upmanship with the Canadians he could still win.

Next time the prime minister talks about every country being brought down by this crisis - or the chancellor suggests that everyone made the same mistakes - remember Canada. Nowhere is immune, but by most key measures, the Canadians are coming out of this crisis in a league of their own.

Take the banking system. Canada's banks have not just had fewer bailouts than other countries. They've had none. Zero. Not a dime.

That may change - the five banks that dominate Canada's banking sector have had to write down large losses on subprime and the like. But so far they've done without government handouts. And they have raised about £5bn in equity since October. Their shares have fallen sharply, but by 40-50% - not 80-90% as they have in Britain and the US.

As the FT pointed out today, of the seven institutions in the world that still retain a triple-A Moody's credit rating, two are Canadian banks. And as their competitors have tumbled, so they have ascended the global rankings: all five Canadian banks now rank in the world top 50.

Didn't they pay a price for that boring banking - the distinct lack of securitisation and innovation? Well, it's true, Canada didn't have a nationwide house price bubble in the lead up to this crisis. And they didn't have the same kind of rise in personal debt. That's one reason the IMF used words like "resilient" and "well-placed" in its latest survey of the country's prospects.

You can see the results of this rather old-style approach in Canada's boringly consistent rate of growth. On average, between 2001 and 2007, its economy grew by 2.6%.

Across the ocean, the City was a hotbed of global financial innovation, and we were riding a heady stock market and housing boom on a sea of debt. The result? Average economic growth between 2001 and 2007 of, er, 2.6%.

Of course, Canada has been hit by this crisis - about a third of its GDP is taken up with exports to the US. The economy shrank slightly last year and the consensus is for a decline of 1.8% this year. But it looks set to have the shallowest recession of all the G7 economies, with the smallest decline in activity in 2009 and fastest growth in 2010.

Despite the openness of its economy, Canada has not even been part of the global trade imbalances I keep going on about. It had a modest surplus in the years leading up to the crisis - now it's moving into deficit.

I'm sure someone will write to tell me the blot on Canada's economic record, the fatal policy error that will cause me to sheepishly revoke its award in a few days' time. But I haven't found it yet.

Its sober management of the public finances has even left it room for a decent-sized stimulus package for this year and next. Net debt last year was an irritating 22% of GDP.

And the most impressive thing of all about Canada's position is that you are probably reading about it for the first time. Canadians are so sensible they even have the sense not to brag, in case things turn out badly for them after all.

If the UK had these vital statistics, by now the world would be sick of hearing about them. But on top of everything else, the Canadians have guarded against hubris as well.

Goodie-two-shoes is right. If I were Gordon Brown, I'd be wishing Canada wasn't coming at all.
 
Canada is in trouble but its likely in the most stable fiscal situation when it comes to its government .

After lowering the debts over the last decade, after the crisis we likely will go to the same debt levels as before or maybe a bit more. Meaning we will not have to start making astronomical interest payments like the US will have to and Obama will have to stop raising hopes and significantly increase taxes.
 
I wish people would stop saying, 'Canada is in trouble.' We are in a recession, plain and simple. The stats bear it out. The sound policies and prudence of the last decade and a half (credit to the Martin/Chretien team) is paying off now. We are not in trouble. You want to see trouble, drive through the City in London or drive through Miami and have a look at the reams of unfinished (and probably never to be finished) condos. That's trouble. We, on the other hand, are seeing the backside of a decade and a half of growth. It might get worse before it gets better, but we are significantly better off than most countries in the world and I wish Canadians for once would acknowledge that.
 
Keithz:

Just because we might be relatively better off doesn't mean we aren't in trouble, considering the structural changes the economy is facing, on top of our economic dependence on trading partners whose current state, frankly, in deep shit. Before saying that the article suggests that our manufacturing sector is relatively small - don't forget the multiplicative effect of employment from that sector to the economy. In addition, the trouble isn't necessarily evenly distributed either. To say otherwise is like a certain elected politician telling us that we are at no risk of a recession when one is right at the doorstep. Positive thinking is one thing, denying reality is another.

AoD
 
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^ Fair points. What gets my goat are the folks (like a certain member here who trolls only the politics forum) who constantly suggest that we are in the same soup or worse than the US. We are not. By virtually any measure we are doing better than any developed country. The only countries doing better than us are the emerging markets of the developing world. Would anyone here want to trade our standard of living for their economic growth rates?
 
well in Ontario is in a deep problem as its whole economy is changing.


It appears Ontario use to have large big manufacturing cities like Windsor and Hamilton however it appears they only places making great economic wealth will be Ottawa, KW and the Toronto area. Small town Ontario is suffering greatly.

The thing is if your an office worker going to a bank job on the GO train from Oakville, you will likely will not see much about the recession.
 
Canada is in trouble but its likely in the most stable fiscal situation when it comes to its government .

After lowering the debts over the last decade, after the crisis we likely will go to the same debt levels as before or maybe a bit more. Meaning we will not have to start making astronomical interest payments like the US will have to and Obama will have to stop raising hopes and significantly increase taxes.

The idea behind the massive debt being created to pull the US out of current economic turmoil (and mismanagement over many years) is that the GDP will overall significantly grow, and the monetary supply will face inflation (hopefully sustained inflation that is not too high) so that the debt load in the future will be a smaller percent (in ratio to the money supply) than it is today even though the actual debt number is higher. The problem is that governments need to avoid too much deficit so they have the ability to do what Obama is doing during times of crisis. A debt-ridden government cannot print the trillions and trillions of dollars the US would need to get out of the current crisis. Once this crisis is over I hope Obama's plans include taxing big money interests in Wall Street to pay for their created mistakes and get the government's books back in order so it could be eligible to spend the trillions again if necessary for a future crisis.

Monetary policy is too complicated to sum up in a small argument, but the US debt can be handled perfectly fine if the monetary supply grows, inflation is controlled and money becomes more available. If the percent of the government debt vs the overall money supply in the US system is less than the present going forward, the US will be fine.

The monetary system is a numbers game. Fractional reserve banking basically creates money out of thin air, and debt IS money. If the central bank of a given nation requires banks to only have 20% of a bankholder's deposits actually on availability, that means if you hold an account in the amount of $100,000, only $20,000 is technically required to be actively available to you.

So the bank takes its collective assets and will lend out the remainder. So if person B takes out an $80,000 loan, that's money the private bank just created out of thin air (from your account, since that money is supposed to be yours) and provided to another person, who then uses the money for their own purpose. And once the money is spent, it becomes a deposit at another account either at the same bank or another bank where the same thing happens.

Technically what happens when a bank begins to become insolvent is when the number of assets a given bank has dips below, say, 5% of deposits. During this crisis, I doubt many of the big American banks have had even 1-5% of their money actually available that is in people's accounts. In other words, money is just fiction on paper... Most people who don't understand economics are oblivious that in a "good" economy, banks usually never have more than 20-25% of money actually available to all of its deposit holders if they all came to the door asking for money that day, all at once. Its only a bad economy if they get to super low stats like 1% available to pay out, which is what happened to several major US banks in the past 6 months and why the FDIC and federal government had to come in and take over.

I wished more people understood how unstable our monetary system is, for those of us in the industrialized world to understand our "civilized" society.

When loans dry up, the money supply dries up exponentially, and crisis happens such as what is going on in the US right now.

Our modern economic system is only possible because of debt, and debt is money. If we all saved money and stopped getting loans, mortgages, and stopped charging on our credit cards the capitalist world economies would become MORE stale than the most stodgy communist state ever was. DEBT IS MONEY in capitalism. Amazingly few people realize this.

Disgusting to think about really, I wished I lived in an era where we weren't strapped with such an old world economic system. I'm not a communist, but I do wish for a day where we can replace this old style monetary system with an economic system that is fairer without the business cycles that create mass instability after mass booms. Hopefully it can be a scientifically proven system and occur without revolution or any other uncivilized methods of transition.

Capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, mercantilism, feudalism... We need a new, modern "ism" to reinvent the world and put these old world ideas to rest. Capitalism is fatally flawed and its only been fixed by socializing banks (why US capitalism has to be saved by socialism and socializing major US institutions if capitalism is the best platform for the future is an interesting study). But we'll leave that to later generations to figure out, I suppose. It has been interesting watching the United States go from hyper-capitalism to social-capitalism or government-backed corporatism (or whatever you want to call this) in less than 2 years.

ANYWAY... So far as a new industry to fix our current economic state...

The world is going to need to create a new Energy Technology (ET) sector to move beyond that particular resource problem so we in the west can stop using oil from anywhere, including raping the oil sands of Alberta's natural beauty and turning it into toxic cesspools. Becoming energy independent and environmentally sustainable is the next "IT" since the information technology boom is what created the boom in the 90's for Japan (well, they were rather stagnant but did benefit, its really all of Asia that woke up in the 90's from Singapore to Taiwan to South Korea; each creating a dynamic new IT based economy) and the United States and Canada... and most western nations. The nations whose economies adjust and become energy independent based on new technology will become the new powerhouses, and its the new industry to follow for world stability on several levels: environmental stability, economic stability (the ET revolution will surpass the IT revolution in importance in our lifetimes), and security on terrorism and war probabilities.

BTW, China is the nation right now with the largest investments setting up for developing better electrical technologies from greener renewables to electric cars and infrastructure. Obama is introducing some good ideas south of the border. Harper is supporting Alberta oil while Ontario is facing a systemic economic shift that is going to be hard for everyone from Windsor to Brantford. Canada does need new leadership on the ET revolution if it wants to participate and be a part of it.

ET can help Ontario, and it can help Canada be a leader for the future. Focusing only on Alberta oil will contribute to the need of manufacturing workers migrating from Brantford, ON to Fort McMurray, AB. Rural Ontario needs to wake up and start supporting a solution, not supporting out-migration to other growing parts of Canada.

Toronto will remain the primary financial market to trade and fund the ET sector in Ontario and all of Canada. Toronto will remain the media centre to report about it. Toronto will remain what it is, but the whole does need to be healthy for Toronto to be healthy. :) Windsor's manufacturing yin is Toronto's financial yang.

And for those who are partial to Alberta oil, yes Alberta oil is needed. But it doesn't need to be the focus of everything as oil will eventually (hopefully in my lifetime) become known as the old energy sector while factories appear in Oshawa and Windsor to create electric cars and fuel cell production, hydrogen refineries, solar panels, wind turbines, water turbines, geothermal, and other ET products.
 
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major problem in the States is that interest payment are going to really handicap the government in the future.
 
After a bubble pops -- the standard of living naturally would go down some -- and no-one wants to admit it....

So the solution is to walk into the Casino and place 10 trillion on double zero, if it pays off things will go on a little longer - if not - you've already bet the house :eek:
 
there is a lot of talk that the age of excess has ended in the States.


So are we going to have 100+ cars for 100 drivers to 85-90 cars per 100 drivers???

lol
 
Hmm, I went back and re-read some of my comments from yesterday. Interesting how a Sunday morning super-hangover can incite such a discussion. :)
 

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