News   Jul 18, 2024
 180     0 
News   Jul 18, 2024
 389     0 
News   Jul 18, 2024
 490     0 

The Condo Game [CBC Documentary]

The only one missing the point here is you. Look, nobody here is disputing your point about losing a measure of control when you buy a condo unit. That's just something you accept when you decide on that type of home ownership. There's no debate there. But the real question is: so what? What specifically are the consequences of that? How common are these problems you keep alluding to? Do these problems of the condominium model of ownership outweigh the benefits vis a vis freehold home ownership or renting? If so, let's see some evidence.


You're the one talking about the consequences of condo ownership but you don't actually show what they are. The implication is clearly that issues with condos are a bigger problem than with other housing types and that no amount of amending the Condo Act can fix that. The burden of proof is on you.

I haven't said anything about which building type requires more maintenance. They all do sooner or later. That's not the point.

Re: so what? If you lose control, you cannot protect your investment, or even secure a decent place to live. Maybe you can't even sell your unit at all, depending on what problems the building has. That's a huge financial hit for most people, and there are such cases, as we saw in the documentary.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
 
Yes, I'm renting a condo unit. If I had bought this Urbancorp abortion and was stuck with a mortgage, there'd be bloody murders.

What my landlord and I have had to deal with to try and get my windows fixed has been hilarious. I feel bad for my landlord because he's stuck with the place and I can leave whenever I like.
I like my unit and all but the place was shoddily built and the property management and board are useless.

Eh....I'm leaving within two years to go back to school so I'll survive, but will my landlord? ;)
 
So you have no evidence.

And you are just dodging the question.

Look, you can tout worse case scenarios all you like. There are no guarantees in any form of real estate investment you choose. Choose the one that suits your needs and comfort level. But speculating by purchasing unbuilt condos is a gamble. Buying existing condos allows you to see what you are buying before you buy it.
 
^Precisely. There are advantages and disadvantages with any type of investment or living situation. I could mention worst case scenarios with home ownership (my parents had some horror stories with their last house) or renting as well, and you'd have a hard time convincing me that it's more common in condos. But you don't see documentaries called "The House Game" or "The Apartment Game" or people saying they're anti-house. Obviously problems can happen with condos, but that doesn't mean they're a bad type of ownership in general. Each condo is a community and some are better than others. As for my own condo, everything has been fine and the building is a decade old. Things get fixed before I even knew they were broken.
 
And you are just dodging the question.

Look, you can tout worse case scenarios all you like. There are no guarantees in any form of real estate investment you choose. Choose the one that suits your needs and comfort level. But speculating by purchasing unbuilt condos is a gamble. Buying existing condos allows you to see what you are buying before you buy it.

Dodging what question?

Anyway, even buying an old condo doesn't tell you the future of what repairs will be needed and whether the condo board is competent and solvent enough to cover them And if the board isn't, good luck to you, because there is almost nothing you can do about it - unlike with a house or a rental.
 
^Precisely. There are advantages and disadvantages with any type of investment or living situation. I could mention worst case scenarios with home ownership (my parents had some horror stories with their last house) or renting as well, and you'd have a hard time convincing me that it's more common in condos. But you don't see documentaries called "The House Game" or "The Apartment Game" or people saying they're anti-house. Obviously problems can happen with condos, but that doesn't mean they're a bad type of ownership in general. Each condo is a community and some are better than others. As for my own condo, everything has been fine and the building is a decade old. Things get fixed before I even knew they were broken.

Yes, condos are a bad type of ownership, because you have ALL of the responsibilities of ownership, but nowhere near the same level of control to solve problems. So the risk is actually greater. It's been spelled out for you on this thread several times.

This thread isn't about YOUR personal experience and your need to rationalize your housing choice, it's about the documentary on problems with condos. So that's what we're talking about. You can start a condo-fan thread if that's what you want to talk about.
 
Dodging what question?

My "proof in the pudding" position....that the average residential condo building is better maintained than the average freehold house, commercial rental building, or public housing. You asked for actual stats, rather than disagreeing, because you know this is true and flies in the face of your assertions.


even buying an old condo doesn't tell you the future of what repairs will be needed and whether the condo board is competent and solvent enough to cover them

Actually, you can plan for what will need fixing/replacing, and that is what condo corps do. There is a level of bureaucracy that comes with condo ownership, and it is there for a reason. But this is a known factor, so if this doesn't suit you, then obviously you don't choose condo ownership in the first place. You can dream up worse-case scenarios for any type of ownership.



because there is almost nothing you can do about it - unlike with a house or a rental.

Of course you can do something about it. Besides being less likely that there's going to be serious issues in the first place (because it is better maintained), you aren't battling a landlord who does not have your best interests at heart.

As for renters "just leaving", well you can't just leave....you may have a fixed term lease agreement which you are legally bound to fulfil regardless of maintenance issues. At the very least, you must give 60 days notice. If things were that bad in a condo, you can also "just leave"...you can sell a condo within the same amount of time a renter takes to move. The only difference is, that the condo owner is probably going to take a healthy tax free capital gain with him to the next place, whereas the renter faces a rather nasty rental market with nothing to show for his misery.

A freehold home owner doesn't really have any "common area", so the comparison doesn't apply here. But wait....your neighbours are sort of your "common area", as how adjacent property to yours is maintained does affect both your living conditions as well as the value of your property. And you certainly have less "control" over your neighbours than a condo owner has over the common elements of their condo corp.


Yes, condos are a bad type of ownership, because you have ALL of the responsibilities of ownership, but nowhere near the same level of control to solve problems

This is rather silly, because other than cost, the main reason people choose condo living is to escape the responsibilities that go with free hold home ownership. There's no such thing as a bad type of ownership....only ones that don't suit your needs/lifestyle.

So the risk is actually greater.

And here we are again. If this is true, then it should bare out in the evidence. Does it?
If the risk of poor maintenance is higher in condo buildings, than the average condo building should be in worse condition than any other form of residential real estate. The opposite appears to be the case (it's self-evident, so please don't take the position that you want to see an official survey, cause that is just insulting our intelligence).

For the record, highrise apartment condos are not my first choice for investment for ME (although I have owned 3 in the past).
 
My "proof in the pudding" position....that the average residential condo building is better maintained than the average freehold house, commercial rental building, or public housing. You asked for actual stats, rather than disagreeing, because you know this is true and flies in the face of your assertions.

>>Wait, so your lack of evidence means you're right but my lack of evidence means I'm wrong? Er, OK. Great reasoning skills you've got there.

Since there does not appear to be any good data on this issue, we must accept that it's an unknown. Note that I never made any claims either way.




Actually, you can plan for what will need fixing/replacing, and that is what condo corps do. There is a level of bureaucracy that comes with condo ownership, and it is there for a reason. But this is a known factor, so if this doesn't suit you, then obviously you don't choose condo ownership in the first place. You can dream up worse-case scenarios for any type of ownership.

>>For the love of god, did you watch the documentary? Have you read up on condo management at all? Did you read the comments on this thread? There are a lot of incompetent condo boards out there. The condo buyer has no way to know in advance how competent their board will be in the future.



Of course you can do something about it. Besides being less likely that there's going to be serious issues in the first place (because it is better maintained), you aren't battling a landlord who does not have your best interests at heart.

>>Unless the building is not well-maintained. Some aren't, and sometimes the landlord can't fix it, as a renter on this very thread has discussed.

As for renters "just leaving", well you can't just leave....you may have a fixed term lease agreement which you are legally bound to fulfil regardless of maintenance issues. At the very least, you must give 60 days notice. If things were that bad in a condo, you can also "just leave"...you can sell a condo within the same amount of time a renter takes to move. The only difference is, that the condo owner is probably going to take a healthy tax free capital gain with him to the next place, whereas the renter faces a rather nasty rental market with nothing to show for his misery.

>>Nope, you can take a loss on a condo just like any other investment, ESPECIALLY if the building has issues. If there is a reason you don't want to live there, it's also a reason why someone else won't either. And rental markets are not always "nasty", some rental markets never are, so you're just making that up.

A freehold home owner doesn't really have any "common area", so the comparison doesn't apply here. But wait....your neighbours are sort of your "common area", as how adjacent property to yours is maintained does affect both your living conditions as well as the value of your property. And you certainly have less "control" over your neighbours than a condo owner has over the common elements of their condo corp.

>>What is the point of that comment? This thread is not about bad-neighbour issues. Anyway, ALL dwelling types have neighbours.


This is rather silly, because other than cost, the main reason people choose condo living is to escape the responsibilities that go with free hold home ownership.

>>They may believe they are escaping those responsibilites, but they aren't. That's clear from the documentary. If your building needs major repairs and your condo board won't take care of it, you have take on the board, and you're stuck with the consequences.


There's no such thing as a bad type of ownership....only ones that don't suit your needs/lifestyle.

>>Nope, there is such a thing as bad type of ownership, and condos are a great example.



And here we are again. If this is true, then it should bare out in the evidence. Does it?
If the risk of poor maintenance is higher in condo buildings, than the average condo building should be in worse condition than any other form of residential real estate. The opposite appears to be the case (it's self-evident, so please don't take the position that you want to see an official survey, cause that is just insulting our intelligence).

>>"Self-evident" is the fallback for anyone who doesn't have actual evidence (or the intelligence to know they've lost that point).
For the record, highrise apartment condos are not my first choice for investment for ME (although I have owned 3 in the past).[/QUOTE]
 
To sum it up, there are condo buildings in both good and bad shape. And there are single family homes in both good and bad shape.
 
The documentary was pretty good and didn't really have anything alarming to say. The music was dramatic, however, along with typical socialist content. Sorry to all of those people who want new SFD dwellings built in the downtown core, but condo apartments are here to stay. It is a good thing that we have a slow down in the market right now to learn from some past mistakes as we move forward.

There are some major quality issues with some developers. Hopefully, people aren't scared to say so.
 
yes, condos are a bad type of ownership, because you have all of the responsibilities of ownership, but nowhere near the same level of control to solve problems. So the risk is actually greater. It's been spelled out for you on this thread several times.
Yet you still haven't proven that the risk is greater or that the supposed greater risk actually has real world impacts on maintenance.

This thread isn't about your personal experience and your need to rationalize your housing choice, it's about the documentary on problems with condos. So that's what we're talking about. You can start a condo-fan thread if that's what you want to talk about.

>>unless the building is not well-maintained. Some aren't, and sometimes the landlord can't fix it, as a renter on this very thread has discussed.
lol...gotta love how you dismiss my personal experience while using someone else's personal experience to back up your point. I have no need to rationalize my housing choice. I'm kind of wondering about your need to attack it though. Why not just accept that different people have different choices in housing and leave it at that?
 
Yet you still haven't proven that the risk is greater or that the supposed greater risk actually has real world impacts on maintenance.

>>I never said the risk is greater, or smaller. I've been saying that the risk is there, and the condo owner has FAR less ability to do anything about it. If you're in a condo with problems, it really doesn't matter if the homeowner down the street is worse off, you're still stuck with your condo problems.

lol...gotta love how you dismiss my personal experience while using someone else's personal experience to back up your point. I have no need to rationalize my housing choice. I'm kind of wondering about your need to attack it though. Why not just accept that different people have different choices in housing and leave it at that?


Because you are trying to generalize from your experience. "My condo experience has been OK so far, so that means condos are a good choice."

I've been saying: "Condos have serious risks that you won't necessarily be able to deal with, risks that other ownership models do not have. I recommend avoiding them."
 
Nope, you can take a loss on a condo just like any other investment, ESPECIALLY if the building has issues.

In theory you could take a loss of course. In reality, where in the Toronto condo market is this happening? If this doomsday scenario is as common as you propose, it must be affecting a large portion of the condo resale market. If this were true, Toronto wouldn't be the world capital of condo speculation.


And rental markets are not always "nasty", some rental markets never are, so you're just making that up.

"Some" of them very well may not be, but we are talking about the Toronto rental market...which is. And I'm in the professional landlord business, so I'm not making anything up.

"Self-evident" is the fallback for anyone who doesn't have actual evidence (or the intelligence to know they've lost that point).

You can keep on tap-dancing all you like. I don't expect you to acknowledge it, because it brings down your whole house of cards.

The truth is, the potential for issues or worse case scenarios exist in theory, but in reality, it isn't the doom and gloom you predict.
 

Back
Top