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The Coming Disruption of Transport

Would you buy an EV from a Chinese OEM?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 11.5%
  • No

    Votes: 61 70.1%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 16 18.4%

  • Total voters
    87
I’m not sure which way the trend is going in Mount Forest.
New parking garage and Tesla chargers at the Canadian Tire store.
Picture taken Saturday August 27
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Wow - if you look carefully at those two photos, it's the exact same shelter - the knotholes are in the same place!! Built to last!
 
The C.T. store was built in 2019, the chargers were installed within the last year. The horse and buggy stalls were also installed sometime over the last 1-2 years.
Both pictures were taken on August 27, 2022. I just made one monochrome and got lucky with the vintage car that just rolled in. I like the 3 women charging their Telsa on route to probably Suable Beach and the Mennonite woman probably heading back to the farm for more chores. It took me all summer to catch a Tesla and buggy parked there. Couldn’t capture much of the horse.

In September I captured a number of convertibles and sedans in a nearby church parking lot.
Fascinating way to live. Maybe they have it right?
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Both pictures were taken on August 27, 2022. I just made one monochrome and got lucky with the vintage car that just rolled in
LOL - you got me! Now I look closer, I can see that vintage car tucked in the side of the stall, in the colour photo!

Such stalls are common enough in that area - one of the malls in Kitchener-Waterloo has had stalls for years. As does Home Depot:
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GM only plans to produce 1M EVs in NA by 2025.

For a total market of 18-20M units, a single OEM putting out 1M EVs by 2025, in that market alone, is not a small amount. Moreover, for a manufacturer that sells 6-8M globally to put out 1M EVs actually in just North America, just 3 years from now is not some small accomplishment either. If the other big OEMs have similar plans in the North American market, all of a sudden we're looking at EV adoption rates that are substantially ahead of conventional forecasts.

And I have no faith that GM, VW, etc. is going to deliver level 4 autonomy sooner than Tesla. Let's hope VW isn't dismissing it as a possibility until 2030.

Nobody said they are going to deliver Level 4 by 2030. What you seem to misunderstand here is that they don't want to put out a whole new platform if it doesn't have significant advancements. What they are effectively is saying is that they won't move to SSP till they have Level 4. And in the interim they will invest enough to keep the MEB and PPE platforms relevant to the market. From an engineering resource point of view this makes a ton of sense to me. Especially for a company trying to grow their software abilities. And given that the ID series is selling well, there's no pressing need to switch horses mid race.

I am not sure that China is going to be made a pariah from a global markets standpoint. Maybe the past year has been a paradigm shift in global trade patterns but I am not yet convinced.

You must have missed the recent actions by the US and Europe on semiconductors. And there's a lot more coming. The idea that the Chinese will have unfettered access to markets and technology in the 2020s as in the past is quickly coming undone. The great decoupling has begun.

Even outside of China, there are emerging players like Vinfast that will be attacking western markets.

I agree there will be plenty of new players. How much of the market they can take is very much debatable. For example, Vinfast total global sales in 2021 were less than 38k. Even if they 10x by 2025, they aren't going to be threatening North American OEMs.

To be clear, I'm no fan of legacy OEMs. Particularly the North American OEMs which have long had a shady history. I, especially, hate the dealer franchise model they foisted on us. But I am also quite bullish on electrification and very optimistic that it will go faster than most people expect. I just don't think it will go as fast as Tesla fans imagine it will. I've seen the stuff from the EV bulls on YouTube to the Tesla forums predicting total demise of all legacy OEMs by 2030. Spend 5 minutes actually looking at the numbers yourself and all of a sudden it doesn't look nearly as dire. Big picture, most countries aren't banning the sales of gas cars till 2035. So I look at whether a given OEM has plans for that date.

There's a lot of speed bumps. From access to resources, to geopolitical trends. I think we're also likely to see the speed of adoption differ substantially. A country that imports oil through highly vulnerable chokepoints like China has a lot of incentive to move very quickly on EV adoption. A country that isn't a net importer (North America) is likely to move at the pace of technological maturity and optimum economic adoption.
 
You can go by these kinds of anecdotes or drives shares by various YouTubers that are demoing performance of the system as it evolves. It is not done yet, but it has improved significantly this year.
 
You can go by these kinds of anecdotes or drives shares by various YouTubers that are demoing performance of the system as it evolves. It is not done yet, but it has improved significantly this year.

It's what's left when no company provides honest and complete data on their automation development.

And "significantly improved" is absolutely unacceptable. It's utter BS that companies like Tesla get to turn the general public into lab rats in these trials, without consent.
 
"But China will destroy legacy OEMs...."

As predicted, the decoupling is gathering steam in the automotive sector. Once it's gone far enough, I expect Chinese OEMs to get rammed with tariffs.

Without digressing into politics - the remaining Chinese market is large enough that they will continue to develop their AV technology, and at the same pace. It will be a good product.

The problem for North Americal is whether the legacy OEM's can develop a competing product fast enough and good enough to rival it.

Perhaps they can, but I'm especially dubious that US regulatory regimes will have the strength to insist on a fully and properly finished product before allowing the locally-designed tech on the road.

So, the back away from China (which really is about components rather than finished autos, but AV tech is a "component") might cost us. The geopolitics may make that necessary, but we will experience the collateral damage.

- Paul
 
It's what's left when no company provides honest and complete data on their automation development.

And "significantly improved" is absolutely unacceptable. It's utter BS that companies like Tesla get to turn the general public into lab rats in these trials, without consent.
Despite years of hyperventilation, the data does not support the narrative that FSD beta is a menace.
 
Without digressing into politics - the remaining Chinese market is large enough that they will continue to develop their AV technology, and at the same pace. It will be a good product.

The thesis is that EVs from Chinese OEMs will displace sales from legacy automakers elsewhere leading to their demise. When I started this thread a few years ago, I would have absolutely agreed with that. But now that decoupling is on, I don't think this is a likely outcome anymore. Even developing countries like India and Vietnam are being highly incentivized to discourage or disallow penetration of their consumer markets by Chinese manufacturers. And they'll gladly take production share and access to Western markets in exchange for cutting out Chinese OEMs.

I think a lot of EV fans or even transit nerds jonesing for Chinese rolling stock or electric buses think geopolitics is utterly irrelevant. They are in for a surprise.
 

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