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The CityRail Concept: Real Regional Rail for the GTA

I really can't remember what your reasoning was for making Milton the odd man out. Ultimately Milton should have the highest frequency of trains besides Lakeshore. Are you saying there's nothing in the east end that will have enough frequency? I'm really not sure.

At this point it's rather theoretical and far off anyway. But I don't like the idea of the Milton trains terminating at Union whereas the rest continue through. Seems like Mississauga getting screwed over yet again on the transit front.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I really can't remember what your reasoning was for making Milton the odd man out. Ultimately Milton should have the highest frequency of trains besides Lakeshore. Are you saying there's nothing in the east end that will have enough frequency? I'm really not sure.

At this point it's rather theoretical and far off anyway. But I don't like the idea of the Milton trains terminating at Union whereas the rest continue through. Seems like Mississauga getting screwed over yet again on the transit front.
Click to expand...

My rationale was this:

1) Lakeshore East + West is an obvious pairing.

2) The corridor to Brampton is likely to be, along with Lakeshore, the first to get GO REX. The Markham corridor should be a close 2nd, given how much of an impact it can have on eastern Toronto, as well as York Region. Those lines will also both have similar demands, and thus make sense to be paired together.

3) The Barrie and Richmond Hill lines likely won't be electrified for the foreseeable future, and will likely have similar frequencies. Thus, they should be paired together.

That leaves Milton as the odd man out. It's not screwing Mississauga, it's just that every other person at the dance has a partner that makes a lot more sense. The Milton line can be 'REXified' on whatever timetable works for Metrolinx and CP.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I really can't remember what your reasoning was for making Milton the odd man out. Ultimately Milton should have the highest frequency of trains besides Lakeshore. Are you saying there's nothing in the east end that will have enough frequency? I'm really not sure.

At this point it's rather theoretical and far off anyway. But I don't like the idea of the Milton trains terminating at Union whereas the rest continue through. Seems like Mississauga getting screwed over yet again on the transit front.
Click to expand...

IF CP is willing to be reasonable with negotiating track space, the Milton line could continue along CP trackage (Belleville Sub?) to Agincourt and eventually terminate at Pickering or Oshawa.
 
dunkalunk said:
IF CP is willing to be reasonable with negotiating track space, the Milton line could continue along CP trackage (Belleville Sub?) to Agincourt and eventually terminate at Pickering or Oshawa.
Click to expand...

If Metrolinx gets a deal for that entire sub, I'd like to see the Milton service running from Milton to Union, and a Crosstown service running from Cooksville to Seaton.

But yes, that's a big IF.
 
gweed123 said:
If Metrolinx gets a deal for that entire sub, I'd like to see the Milton service running from Milton to Union, and a Crosstown service running from Cooksville to Seaton.

But yes, that's a big IF.
Click to expand...

I agree and have proposed something similar in the past.

If you upgraded the south part of the Orangeville line as well, you could have Brampton - Seaton via Cooksville as well.
 
gweed123 said:
I agree (although I think a Brampton-Markham route is a better combo). Having Union act as a thru-station instead of a terminus will speed things up tremendously. As has been suggested by others on here, even if the terminus points are CityPlace and Distillery respectively (1 stop past Union in either direction), it would do wonders for improving efficiency.

But no matter how you slice it, there is going to be an odd number of routes coming into Union. In this scenario, I think it's best to have Milton be the odd line out (Brampton-Markham, Barrie-Richmond Hill, and Lakeshore being paired).
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I actually think it's the Barrie line that's the odd line out. The ridership potential seems very low. So if think about CityRail/REX, that's the one line that will never be part of it. It will never have enough ridership for rapid transit.

If you compare Milton vs Stouffville, I think there are many similarities between the two corridors. Mississauga vs Scarborough; MCC vs. SCC; Cooksville vs. Unionville/Markham Centre; Streetsville Vs. Markham Village... I think the Stouffville corridor will be very busy one day.
 
gweed123 said:
My rationale was this:

1) Lakeshore East + West is an obvious pairing.

2) The corridor to Brampton is likely to be, along with Lakeshore, the first to get GO REX. The Markham corridor should be a close 2nd, given how much of an impact it can have on eastern Toronto, as well as York Region. Those lines will also both have similar demands, and thus make sense to be paired together.

3) The Barrie and Richmond Hill lines likely won't be electrified for the foreseeable future, and will likely have similar frequencies. Thus, they should be paired together.

That leaves Milton as the odd man out. It's not screwing Mississauga, it's just that every other person at the dance has a partner that makes a lot more sense. The Milton line can be 'REXified' on whatever timetable works for Metrolinx and CP.
Click to expand...

Another reason may be that the Milton line pretty much mirrors the Bloor Subway through Toronto. The Brampton GO line serves a new part of Toronto.
 
From the network perspective, it would be better to combine the Richmond Hill line with Milton, rather than with Barrie.

Then, the combined line will be useful for trips through Union. It will be faster to travel from Mississauga to Sheppard East, or from southern Etobicoke to RHC, using GO REX, rather than using local transit.

Barrie line is too close to RH line. Most of trips between their catchment areas will take less time on local transit. Their pairing at Union will facilitate rolling stock movement, but not passenger movement.
 
From what I understand CP crews still operate Milton? Or has Bombardier cross-qualified their crews onto CP? That would have to be resolved before through-operating between a CN/GO and CP line.
 
CDL.TO said:
If you upgraded the south part of the Orangeville line as well, you could have Brampton - Seaton via Cooksville as well.
Click to expand...
Not from the Brampton station though, unless you brought out a wrecking ball and an expropriation order to build a new curve. I suppose you could build a terminal track along the edge of the GO parking lot to the east of the line over the diamond but it would extend the noise footprint of the station while the train was holding at the platform.

There would be the option of building the platform to the north of the diamond but I can't see that flying either since it would almost certain involve grade separation with the CN/GO tracks and a LONG excavation to provide a level platform close enough to the junction to allow transfers to/from Brampton station, plus then you gotta figure out where in the street grid you can return to grade.
 
doady said:
I actually think it's the Barrie line that's the odd line out. The ridership potential seems very low. So if think about CityRail/REX, that's the one line that will never be part of it. It will never have enough ridership for rapid transit.

If you compare Milton vs Stouffville, I think there are many similarities between the two corridors. Mississauga vs Scarborough; MCC vs. SCC; Cooksville vs. Unionville/Markham Centre; Streetsville Vs. Markham Village... I think the Stouffville corridor will be very busy one day.
Click to expand...

The Barrie line will never be electrified, but likely neither will the Richmond Hill line. The Milton line has a realistic chance of being #5 on the list (Lakeshore West, Lakeshore East, Georgetown, Stouffville being the top 4). So I think it makes sense to pair the two lines that have zero shot of being electrified in the foreseeable future.

If the Richmond Hill line sees a spike in ridership to the point where it's worthy of being REXified, then by all means it can be coupled with a Milton GO REX (because Milton will still happen first). But until that point, I think it still makes sense to keep the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines paired, and leave Milton to run at whatever frequency it wants to, independent of any other line.
 
dowlingm said:
Not from the Brampton station though, unless you brought out a wrecking ball and an expropriation order to build a new curve. I suppose you could build a terminal track along the edge of the GO parking lot to the east of the line over the diamond but it would extend the noise footprint of the station while the train was holding at the platform.

There would be the option of building the platform to the north of the diamond but I can't see that flying either since it would almost certain involve grade separation with the CN/GO tracks and a LONG excavation to provide a level platform close enough to the junction to allow transfers to/from Brampton station, plus then you gotta figure out where in the street grid you can return to grade.
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Just put it south of Railroad Street. It's only 100m from the existing platforms as, and you mentioned, adjacent to an existing GO parking lot.
 
its a shame really that we are constantly bombarded with pipedreams that lead to nowhere because of politics and the retardation of the "system"
meanwhile in china they built a high speed rail line from beijing to shanghai for only $7B more in 3 years (1300km) in 2011. oyea btw feasibility studies were completed only in 5 years prior.
obviously this doesnt take into account just the sheer size of the workforce who get paid fractions compared to unionized laborers but it just goes to show what can be done if people and corporations start agreeing instead of trying to look to their own interests and profits...
 
BurlOak said:
The Star's, or should I say Transport Action Ontario's version of GO REX.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/15/scarborough_transit_the_answer_could_be_riding_on_go.html

http://rrr.transport-action.ca/

I haven't looked through it yet, but $25B does seem steep.
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They're also doing a full electrification, most of which won't really be needed. They're electrifying every existing line, plus adding a new one.

Focusing on Lakeshore (West + East), Brampton, Markham, and maybe the Milton line if they can work with CP, would be the best way to go. That's bold enough, but not too bold that people get sticker shock. I can almost guarantee a lot of that money is electrifying all the way to Kitchener and to Barrie. Cut those two out and the price would drop by a fair amount. Cut the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines out completely and the price would be pretty reasonable.
 
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