The CityRail Concept: Real Regional Rail for the GTA

[doady]

This all so incredibly logical to me. This would mean that Toronto would actually use the rail corridors it has for moving people, something that the TTC has never quite understood.

This would be such an incredibly better use of $2 billion than building Finch or Sheppard LRTs when a BRT would work fine on both those routes. It would bring true mass and rapid transit to every area of the GTA and would serve hundreds of thousands of more passengers to say nothing of making transit a true and viable alternative.

Why on earth would the TTC use the rail corridors for? The LRTs are dumb but they make a lot more sense than building local transit lines along the rail corridors.

TTC definitely could serve the 905 better, but it is not their job to "bring true and rapid transit to every area of the GTA". That's what GO is for.

Also, I'm not sure technically that REX would be "true rapid transit" but rather a combination of rapid transit and commuter rail. True rapid transit would be the TTC subway.

 

[gweed123]

Why on earth would the TTC use the rail corridors for? The LRTs are dumb but they make a lot more sense than building local transit lines along the rail corridors.

TTC definitely could serve the 905 better, but it is not their job to "bring true and rapid transit to every area of the GTA". That's what GO is for.

Also, I'm not sure technically that REX would be "true rapid transit" but rather a combination of rapid transit and commuter rail. True rapid transit would be the TTC subway.

I like to think of GO REX as beefed up commuter rail for the 905, and an express subway for the 416, because in reality it would serve both functions.

Granted, it wouldn't replace the subway system, but rather would compliment it, and take a lot off those long haul subway trips (and bus trips) off the TTC's hands.

For most people in Scarborough or northern Etobicoke who work downtown, GO REX would be significantly preferable to a bus + subway or a bus + LRT + subway or an LRT + subway combination.

 

[nfitz]

I like to think of GO REX ...

Am I the only one who when I see REX and trains, can't help thinking of:

... perhaps I spend too much time watching TV with a 5-year old.

 

[gweed123]

Am I the only one who when I see REX and trains, can't help thinking of:

... perhaps I spend too much time watching TV with a 5-year old.

I think so, hahaha. On the other hand, coupling this was an ad sponsorship from Jurassic Park 3D may make sense

 

[tayser]

So to summarize.................GO Rex is the same as Melbourne and Sydney's CityRail system?

Depends if you compare the now or the future.

We just had a big ol' info dump last week when Public Transport Victoria did the public release of its heavy-rail plan/stragegy that it's effectively had in use for 4-5 years last week.

Melbourne's network - if the following plan is more or less implemented (no funding commitments yet, surprise surprise!) - the distinction between commuter rail and metro will become even more blurred and the two distinctions rendered obsolete.

Gweed's concept with everything converging on Union station is what Melbourne's (and to an extent Sydney's) system is trying to break. At present all trains in Melbourne terminate/originate at Flinders Street, some lines now run straight through. But new projects like the Melbourne Metro Tunnel, and reconfiguring the loop later on (see links below) will completely break this concept.

There's surely some way you can do the same thing in Toronto, but not making it centric on one major station, cos you might find you'll be in the position we're in now in a few decades.


Anyhow, background/explanation:

Current config/planned changes: Lines are currently grouped and over 15-20 years they'll be made into individual lines, summary:

(video accompanied the release of the doco)

Current config:

Ultimate / end of plan configuration:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

^ context: Pakenham (south east of city) is 62km, and Melton (other end of the line / one of the branches in the line that will be created by the Metro Tunnel project) is 45km from the CBD - i.e an over 100km train line that's likely to run on high frequencies (about 75-80km of it will be the combined peak frequencies of those branches).

"Grovedale" in that is an outer suburb of Geelong - an entirely separate city (basically Melbourne's Hamilton).

All the main doco here: http://ptv.vic.gov.au/news/news-promotions/network-development-plan-metropolitan-rail/

Also put all the main images from the doco in a chronological order (over the different phase's projects) on UrbMelb, might make it easier to understand if you dont want to read slabs of text: https://www.urban.com.au/forum/ptvs-network-development-plan-for-metropolitan-rail

 

[ssiguy2]

Again thou, is this whole GO Rex idea justa bunch of talk for us transit geeks or this an actual plan that may be introduced?

The Big Move says nothing about a GO Rex system as it considers GO as basically nothing more than a 905 service with a few stops in the city. They are geared on more LRT so that Torontonians have to take it to the subway and then get packed on. It mentions electrification and all day service but nothing even remotely close to the service levels needed for a RER type system and certainly not any having a fare for inner Toronto travel being the same standard fare as the TTC. They state they would like to see fare integration with the TTC but the TTC has no reason to do this as it will just result in it's fare income having to go to subsidize the GO Rex. If Toronto wanted to it could bring in such a system tomorrow but has no intention of doing so.

 

[gweed123]

Again thou, is this whole GO Rex idea justa bunch of talk for us transit geeks or this an actual plan that may be introduced?

The Big Move says nothing about a GO Rex system as it considers GO as basically nothing more than a 905 service with a few stops in the city. They are geared on more LRT so that Torontonians have to take it to the subway and then get packed on. It mentions electrification and all day service but nothing even remotely close to the service levels needed for a RER type system and certainly not any having a fare for inner Toronto travel being the same standard fare as the TTC. They state they would like to see fare integration with the TTC but the TTC has no reason to do this as it will just result in it's fare income having to go to subsidize the GO Rex. If Toronto wanted to it could bring in such a system tomorrow but has no intention of doing so.

It's not really on the radar now (although electrification is). But that doesn't mean it can't be put on it. Before 2009, the DRL was really only on the radar of transit geeks and the occasional idealistically-minded Planner. No one at City Hall was really thinking about it, and if they were, they weren't speaking out loud about it. Metrolinx had it as an after-thought.

But somewhere along the line that idea crossed from 'transit geek world' into 'mainstream talk'. If an idea is good enough, and enough people hear about it, eventually it'll gain traction. That's what I hope will happen with GO REX. If enough people will see it, enough will understand it, enough will see the need for it, and eventually enough people will start asking for it.

 

[Platform 27]

The Big Move says nothing about a GO Rex system as it considers GO as basically nothing more than a 905 service with a few stops in the city. They are geared on more LRT so that Torontonians have to take it to the subway and then get packed on. It mentions electrification and all day service but nothing even remotely close to the service levels needed for a RER type system.

I think we're all getting really, really sick of your "expert" prognostications from Surrey in which you continue to demonstrate complete ignorance about some of the things your talk about. It's clear you haven't read The Big Move, or else you'd realize that what gweed123 calls GO-REX is in there under the label "Express Rail". And what global example systems does it cite? Why, the Paris RER.

 

[diminutive]

Melbourne's network - if the following plan is more or less implemented (no funding commitments yet, surprise surprise!) - the distinction between commuter rail and metro will become even more blurred and the two distinctions rendered obsolete.

Gweed's concept with everything converging on Union station is what Melbourne's (and to an extent Sydney's) system is trying to break. At present all trains in Melbourne terminate/originate at Flinders Street, some lines now run straight through. But new projects like the Melbourne Metro Tunnel, and reconfiguring the loop later on (see links below) will completely break this concept.

There's surely some way you can do the same thing in Toronto, but not making it centric on one major station, cos you might find you'll be in the position we're in now in a few decades.

I thought the entire point of the City Loop is that trains don't 'terminate' as such inside the city? I always imagined Melbourne's (and Sydney's...) loop worked like Chicago's, with trains running around and out.

In any case I don't see how Toronto could divert much away from the current Union station rail corridor. Our CBD is already covered by a 'loop' with the Yonge-University subway between Queen and Ossington stations. And since the TTC subway is the de facto regional rail for North-South commuters, GO-REX type services will always tend to travel downtown roughly East-West. Without introducing a big kink on top of the rail corridor it'd be difficult to divert away from Union. Something like 5A-2 or 6A could split some demand away from Union. Both would obviously entail huge cost however.

I've always thought folding something like 5A-2 in the above presentation in with the DRL could yield good results for regional and local transit.

 

[ssiguy2]

A a GO Rex system doesn't have to be express rail. I saw the map and it showed express rail from Hamilton which is not what I think we are talking about. To me that seems like better service for 905 commuters but again does relatively little for Torontonians.

RER and S-Bahn's are much more akin to Metros than commuter rail. In functionality they are really just Metros with fewer stops and slightly less frequency.

I think the thing that has brought up this whole GO-REX idea is the UP Link. RER etc system usually use EMU and UP can easily be converted from DMU to EMU. After the games there will be intense pressure to turn the line over to GO or , even better, the TTC. I don't think Torontonians or the province are going to be willing to spend mega-bucks on electrification on a line that most won't or can't afford to use. The UP line is one geared to tourists and business people as even Metrolinx on their video calls the people "guests" and not transit users or patrons.

I can see the GO REX movement gaining momentum because the UP Link has forced the discussion because after the games and especially after electrification, Torontonians will want to be able to use the service they have paid for.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Am I the only one who when I see REX and trains, can't help thinking of:

... perhaps I spend too much time watching TV with a 5-year old.

That show drives me INSANE. Good luck. You have at least 4 more years of it

 

[tayser]

I thought the entire point of the City Loop is that trains don't 'terminate' as such inside the city? I always imagined Melbourne's (and Sydney's...) loop worked like Chicago's, with trains running around and out.

Technically, from a crewing perspective they do, but operationally yes, a train might originate in Pakenham, run all through the way to the city, do the loop, then come out on the same group (Pakenham = Caulfield group) then might run back to Pakenham, Cranbourne or Frankston (refer to map).

There's a stupid amount of dwell time at Flinders St (hence the terminus/origin concept in the city) which is to be done away with the with complete reconfig - as all lines will be crewed from stations outside the city (rather than Flinders St being the largest Crew station) - some, like the Clifton Hill Group will still use its current single line loop and the same with Belgrave/Lilydale. But the South Eastern quadrant of the city (Pakenham/Cranbourne/Frankston/Sandringham lines) as well as the Northern (Upfield, Craigieburn, Sydenham, Melton (when electrified), Werribee, and Williamstown) lines will be broken away from the loop concept. 2 of the existing loops (4 x 1 track tunnels) will be reconfigured to become through lines (Frankston-Craigieburn on the Stage 4 map) avoid Flinders Street and Southern Cross - the two biggest stations in the city. Think of it like a regional line in Toronto, rather than going via Union, 2 extra tunnels would be built alongside the Bloor St line for a while and then rejoin the existing surface rail corridors to the south that would traditionally travel via Union.

Melbourne Metro Tunnel (completely crosses the city outside the current corridor configuration) is quite literally like building a completely new tunnel to run up Bay St to supplement the Yonge/University line(s) - i.e a relief line.

 

[doady]

I thought the entire point of the City Loop is that trains don't 'terminate' as such inside the city? I always imagined Melbourne's (and Sydney's...) loop worked like Chicago's, with trains running around and out.

In any case I don't see how Toronto could divert much away from the current Union station rail corridor. Our CBD is already covered by a 'loop' with the Yonge-University subway between Queen and Ossington stations. And since the TTC subway is the de facto regional rail for North-South commuters, GO-REX type services will always tend to travel downtown roughly East-West. Without introducing a big kink on top of the rail corridor it'd be difficult to divert away from Union. Something like 5A-2 or 6A could split some demand away from Union. Both would obviously entail huge cost however.

I think when GO lines get more two-way service, they can start interlining/combining routes. Milton+Stouffeville would be a great combo, for example. Simply not having all these lines terminate at Union would free up a lot of capacity. No need for diversion or loop.

 

[kEiThZ]

Investing GO offers so much bang for buck. I hoestly wish this was prioritized above everything else. Building GO REX first would have helped justify tearing down the Gardiner. Combine it with TTC fare co-ordination and you might have seen some interim relief to the Yonge line from Scarborough and Etobicoke commuters, buying us more time there. And you'd see far less demands for subway extension as travel patterns changed to prefer the GO REX system.

Instead, we have the dog's breakfast of Metrolinx's plans today which, if we're lucky, will simply keep up with population growth and not let congestion worsen.

 

[gweed123]

I think when GO lines get more two-way service, they can start interlining/combining routes. Milton+Stouffeville would be a great combo, for example. Simply not having all these lines terminate at Union would free up a lot of capacity. No need for diversion or loop.

I agree (although I think a Brampton-Markham route is a better combo). Having Union act as a thru-station instead of a terminus will speed things up tremendously. As has been suggested by others on here, even if the terminus points are CityPlace and Distillery respectively (1 stop past Union in either direction), it would do wonders for improving efficiency.

But no matter how you slice it, there is going to be an odd number of routes coming into Union. In this scenario, I think it's best to have Milton be the odd line out (Brampton-Markham, Barrie-Richmond Hill, and Lakeshore being paired).