Tamil Protests downtown

[GraphicMatt]

That is a chicken and egg debate. Did the Tamils seek independence because they had a negative reaction to living with Sri Lankans or was Sri Lankans showing disrespect to Tamils leading to them seeking independence. It seems Tamils grabbed the gun first and there is definite evidence they purposely sought to remove non-Tamils, especially Muslims, from their occupied territories. Sri Lanka at one point elected a government sympathetic to their cause which doesn't seem to paint a picture of one-way racist behaviour where Sri Lankans are racist towards Tamils when this conflict began. Such feelings may exist now though and such feelings likely haven't been reduced by the actions of the LTTE and their supporters.

Even if the Tamils were led by the worst kind of terrorists and are 100% responsible for starting the fight against the Sri Lankan government, that does not excuse nor does it justify a government killing its own unarmed citizens.

I know that seems like an obvious sentiment, and I'm not accusing you of believing otherwise, but, hey, persespective.

Keith: Do you have a source on police officers still in hospital thing? I'd think news stories would have mentioned that and a quick search of the heavies (Star, Globe) turns up no reports.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think one should be *really* careful when generalizing armed liberation movements - how we viewed them tend to be determined by whether they're successful or not - and I am fairly certain most of them involved atrocities of some sort as part of the modus operandi. The bigger question no-one dared to ask is - what right, if any, does oppressed minorities/peoples have in engaging in armed insurrection with the stated goal of achieving sovereignity from an existing state? And tactics are considered admissable, taking into account the gross differences in fighting capacities?

AoD

 

[EnviroTO]

Even if the Tamils were led by the worst kind of terrorists and are 100% responsible for starting the fight against the Sri Lankan government, that does not excuse nor does it justify a government killing its own unarmed citizens.

The Sri Lankan army has definitely gone too far. One of their own generals has made ludicrous claims of zero civilian deaths and wanting to kill every last LTTE member (i.e. he has rule out the surrender possibility). I wouldn't be surprised if they are killing innocent people and putting guns in their hands afterwards so they can call them LTTE. However, I have a real problem with people who are protesting war carrying around flags which represent the LTTE which has the most significant part of starting this whole thing and who have acted no better. It would be like protesting in support of peace while marching around with pictures of Bin Laden, Hamas flags, and Hezbollah flags. The flags even have a picture of a gun on it.

To carry around an LTTE flag makes me wonder if the real focus is really on taking the pressure off the LTTE so they can try again. If the LTTE had laid down their weapons months ago the Sri Lankans would have a serious problem explaining killing innocent people, but as long as there is shooting back those civilians can be easily labelled innocent casualties of war. Some of the people protesting likely played a part in putting the weapons in LTTE hands that have allowed this thing to drag on thus putting more people at risk. I have a hard time believing that professionally printed LTTE flags were made overnight en masse for these protests. Why did these people have these flags?

I would like hostilities to end, for reporters to be allowed in, and for Canada to call for such. The Sri Lankan army has gone too far and reporters likely aren't allowed in because they are hiding their wrongdoings. However, the LTTE has gone to far as well. The actions of these protesters is going to far as well. There is no reason to hold Canadians responsible for what is going on in Sri Lanka. You don't protest Ford at the Chrysler plant. It makes no sense. The protesters need to get a clear message which is pro-peace, clearly states the expectations of the Canadian government, and drop the "LTTE our only hope" and other ridiculous claims like "all Sri Lankans are child molesters". If they expect Canadians and the government to support the LTTE they are seriously misguided.

 

[AKS]

Even if the Tamils were led by the worst kind of terrorists and are 100% responsible for starting the fight against the Sri Lankan government, that does not excuse nor does it justify a government killing its own unarmed citizens.

It's a war. Tactics were probably used. How do you know the government killed unarmed citizens deliberately? Were there reporters outside reporting this? Or hearsay? How do you know they weren't using civilians as a shield? If the govt wanted to remove the LTTE, they would have to go through civilians first. And how do you know they didn't hide some soldiers as civilians? Wait for the military to try and arrest civilians and when off guard, shoot them? The military get pissed off and start killing all civilians cuz they can't tell who is and who isn't.

 

[EnviroTO]

I would really like to know why there are so many civilians in the last area held out by the LTTE. Why aren't these civilians spread out across the country?

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's a war. Tactics were probably used. How do you know the government killed unarmed citizens deliberately? Were there reporters outside reporting this? Or hearsay? How do you know they weren't using civilians as a shield?

I don't know any more than you do. The media is not allowed in to report.

The military get pissed off and start killing all civilians cuz they can't tell who is and who isn't.

How would you feel if your government started doing this? You've just described a war crime.

These conflicts rarely if ever break down along simple good versus evil lines, and it's dangerous to try to find that simplification.

Considering all alternatives, though, would a brokered ceasefire be so bad?

 

[Asterix]

Considering all alternatives, though, would a brokered ceasefire be so bad?

From what I understand, they previously had one, but the LTTE used it to regroup and rearm, then returned to violence.

They've also had a reasonable settlement offer from the government but instead decided to go for a bigger slice of the pie.

Why would the government think the LTTE would act any differently for another ceasefire?

 

[AKS]

How would you feel if your government started doing this? You've just described a war crime.

Well, it's hard to say. If Canada has had this strife going on for over 20 years, how would they react? Both sides have had thousands/millions of innocents killed over so many years. They might think "let's end this once and for all".

These conflicts rarely if ever break down along simple good versus evil lines, and it's dangerous to try to find that simplification.

Considering all alternatives, though, would a brokered ceasefire be so bad?

Yes, it's hard to say who is good or evil. Both sides seem to have made mistakes. As for ceasefire, it would only be temporary. Once the LTTE get back on their feet again, I'm sure there will be more battles. It's never ending.
However even if the govt does remove the LTTE, it doesn't mean another group won't be created and battles start all over again. How can you teach two groups to get a long who don't like each other? Usually the teacher would split them up. Maybe it might be best if the country split up like Korea's North and South?

 

[nfitz]

I haven't seen video of them entering the Gardiner. But I did hear accounts from drivers on the radio. These drivers were in the first wave and reported that protesters literally ran on to the highway while traffic was moving at full speed

That does seem a bit daft ... ironically, I drove through there eastbound while this was all happening - but I couldn't see anything, and didn't know about it until I got home.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keith: Do you have a source on police officers still in hospital thing? I'd think news stories would have mentioned that and a quick search of the heavies (Star, Globe) turns up no reports.

Like I said earlier, most of what info I got was from radio and tv newschannel. I don't know why some of that has not come out in print media (I suspect its only important to report the cops got hurt not necessarily to report on when they were discharged).

Considering all alternatives, though, would a brokered ceasefire be so bad?

They've had several already. Each time the LTTE has emerged stronger and more capable. The last time around they added an air force and a navy. I strongly suspect that's what's preventing the government of Sri Lanka (GoSL) from negotiating. They see it as a ploy to buy the LTTE more time. And they may not be too far off the mark on this point.

There are very few solutions I can see:

1) LTTE surrenders and let's the civilians go. If this was an organized military force, we would expect the commander to surrender and avoid unecessary bloodshed. So it's not unreasonable to expect the same now. It's clear the LTTE is not going to win this fight.

2) We can have the international community intervene to evacuate the Tamils (by force if necessary) and then let the fighting resume till the GoSL wins.

None of those solutions are of course palatable to the protesters here who continue to insist that the Tigers are the only one fighting for them. Interestingly, the Karuna faction of eastern Tamils disagreed and broke away with the LTTE and made peace with the government. Of course, the protesters here call them traitors to the cause.

Of course, a political solutions is the long sustainable long term solution. But before we get there the fighting has to stop and at this stage we might well be better off working to protect the civilians but letting the conflict run its course. I would support our government adding its voice to the UK and the US which have called for a temporary ceasefire to evacuate civilians. But the LTTEs call for a permanent ceasefire while it hangs on to its weapons and continues to 'protect' the civilians strikes me as a bit hollow….coming from a group that's already violated several ceasefires. And it's really bad that Toronto Tamils are siding with them on this. They should be showing their concern for the civilians first and foremost by challenging human rights abuses and war crimes on both sides.

 

[Mystic Point]

MASS PROTEST

Our Tamil Tigers plan human chain at Queen's Park today.
Downtown subway targeted as organizers call for tens of thousands to turn out days after Gardiner Expressway blockade

Toronto is bracing for another Tamil mass protest today, with tens of thousands of people expected to descend on Queen's Park to form a human chain at noon, targeting the downtown subway as well.​

 

[Asterix]

1) LTTE surrenders and let's the civilians go. If this was an organized military force, we would expect the commander to surrender and avoid unecessary bloodshed. So it's not unreasonable to expect the same now. It's clear the LTTE is not going to win this fight.

Don't they also mandate wearing of cyanide capsules around their necks?

That suggests more an organization that is willing to sacrifice itself (and anyone else, including civilians, it can drag into the conflict) in the name of their cause.

 

[realtycoon]

MASS PROTEST

Our Tamil Tigers plan human chain at Queen's Park today.
Downtown subway targeted as organizers call for tens of thousands to turn out days after Gardiner Expressway blockade

Toronto is bracing for another Tamil mass protest today, with tens of thousands of people expected to descend on Queen's Park to form a human chain at noon, targeting the downtown subway as well.​

I would like to see them try that..
The subway on a normal day has a lot of pushing and shoving

 

[Mystic Point]

I would like to see them try that..
The subway on a normal day has a lot of pushing and shoving

Our Tamil Tigers will never rest until Canada ends the war in Sri Lanka.​

 

[kEiThZ]

Our Tamil Tigers will never rest until Canada ends the war in Sri Lanka.​

Pray tell how you would have Canada do that?

Also do you believe that Canada should start policing every part of the world that is troubled?