Systemic racism affecting the TTC?

[nfitz]

I'm not sure I'd want to argue number 3 with a straight face. Or number 2.

You could also argue (4) that our systemically racist society has marginalized blacks, and thus they are more likely in the outer suburbs to be using transit, and thus aren't underrepresented (though I don't think I could ... perhaps for 120% ... 220% seems too high). Census data of racial use of transit for commuting would probably disprove that.

 

[Neutrino]

I'm not sure I'd want to argue number 3 with a straight face. Or number 2.

That thinking is part of the problem. Reality may not map neatly onto your politically correct sensitivities.

You could also argue (4) that our systemically racist society has marginalized blacks, and thus they are more likely in the outer suburbs to be using transit, and thus aren't underrepresented (though I don't think I could ... perhaps for 120% ... 220% seems too high). Census data of racial use of transit for commuting would probably disprove that.

There are some extremely good arguments against that. You're making the claim, you need to support it.

And, for the record, I am centre-left on most issues. I also happen to be a moderate who is not felled by the current strain of rabid pc going around. I would know all about the centre, the "new centre" as it's called in the US: a broad coalition of moderate right and left wingers united in support of reason; and I consider myself very much part of this new group.

Anyway, we're getting very off topic and I suggest we wrap it up.

Edit: Or not, since we now have our own thread!

 

[dowlingm]

1. Agencies such as TTC should not retain information on minor cautions for fare violations if there has been no further contact with the individual in a reasonable timeframe. Let's pick a number and say three years assuming no reason such as litigation to retain further. At that point the file should be purged.
2. If a person racks up cautions or tickets, there should be an automatic review to see if this person just DNGAF or whether enforcement officers see an easy target as was happening with homeless people a few years back
3. Agencies should not share enforcement information with other agencies except where such sharing is publicly acknowledged, and notified to the person concerned within a reasonable timeframe. Let's pick a number and say 365 days.
4. Agencies should publish a yearly summary report of the number of occasions other enforcement agencies requested/directed them to share information, and which agencies so requested.
5. We shouldn't pretend that people of colour will be disproportionately cautioned when white people get a finger wag, and that they will be ticketed when white people are cautioned. We can argue over the exact numbers, but the TTC is not immune to the biases prevalent in other North American enforcement operations, and if the proportion is 190% or 170% rather than 220% after normalizing for usage, we shouldn't get to shrug and go "ah well, not as bad as we thought".

 

[Neutrino]

Again, no mention of behavioral differences or personal responsibility.

 

[nfitz]

There are some extremely good arguments against that. You're making the claim, you need to support it.

I said "you could also argue that ... (though I don't think I could ...).

Why then do I need to support it?

And, for the record, I am centre-left on most issues.

Which surprises me given your previous claim that the media has a left-wing bias, when in the last federal election, the only daily newspaper that supported the NDP was a forgettable one somewhere in the Prairies! Even centrist support is thin.

For the record I'm, if anything, centre to centre-right. However with a rabid hatred of racists, fascists, and white nationalists, it's very lonely ...

 

[Neutrino]

For the record I'm, if anything, centre to centre-right. However with a rabid hatred of racists, fascists, and white nationalists, it's very lonely ...

That's surprising and I'd genuinely like to learn more. Surprising because conservatives generally don't accept claims of systemic racism. I also notice plenty of conservatives, rather regrettably, went through Trump derangement syndrome (no offence to you) after the election. There's plenty of reasonable arguments to be made against Trump, but trumped up (pun intended) claims of racism, fascism and white nationalism poison the discussion and destroy any chance we have of regaining civility in our public discourse. There's also a very good case to be made that such vastly overblown claims and rhetoric helped create Trump in the first place.

Media bias doesn't have to be explicitly expressed as support for a given party. The slant on certain stories is a much better indicator. I can link plenty of examples from mainstream sources if you would like.

 

[nfitz]

That's surprising and I'd genuinely like to learn more. Surprising because conservatives generally don't accept claims of systemic racism.

I said centre-right not right! Not sure what Trump has to do with anything - we are talking in a Canadian, not a foreign context.

It's hard to imagine that there's really anyone who is so ignorant to deny that systemic racism still exists in our society, given recent reports from other sectors. (and my gosh ... in the United States?!?)

Reading the Globe and Mail, there's been a growing right-wing slant for years. And surely the National Post and other PostMedia papers have been there for a long time. I've rarely seen a left-wing slant ... even the Toronto Star brutally attacked our last major elected left-wing mayor!

 

[Neutrino]

I said centre-right not right! Not sure what Trump has to do with anything - we are talking in a Canadian, not a foreign context.

It's hard to imagine that there's really anyone who is so ignorant to deny that systemic racism still exists in our society, given recent reports from other sectors. (and my gosh ... in the United States?!?)

Reading the Globe and Mail, there's been a growing right-wing slant for years. And surely the National Post and other PostMedia papers have been there for a long time. I've rarely seen a left-wing slant ... even the Toronto Star brutally attacked our last major elected left-wing mayor!

The American context is very relevant and quite similar to many trends going on in Canada. I use the US to illustrate these trends in Canada. Even centre-right and belief in systemic racism don't go together, in my view at least.

Given that so many black, brown and Asian immigrants earn more than whites (as group averages) in the US, and that Asians are over represented in Ivy League institutions, claims of systemic racism in the US have essentially no credibility. Data on income is from the US Census Bureau. The situation is trickier for Canada where whites earn more than nonwhites on average, but again I will say that without further research (not ideological jumping to conclusions), we cannot conclude that disparities are due to racism. And that's really my main point. I don't know really what else to say. I guess my question at this point is why the incessant focus on racism? And where's the evidence? And no, disparities and "it's self evident" are not arguments!

 

[nfitz]

The American context is very relevant and quite similar to many trends going on in Canada.

I disagree. If you read even centrist American media, they make out like Sanders is far-left. Reading down his presidential platform, it seemed extremely centrist to me, with little that would make even a red Tory uncomfortable - except his right-wing position on guns.

We can't use an American context here. That nation is overtly racist - let alone systemically racist!

 

[Neutrino]

Well, let's agree to disagree. I dragged this thread way too off topic.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm not sure I'd want to argue number 3 with a straight face. Or number 2.

You could also argue (4) that our systemically racist society has marginalized blacks, and thus they are more likely in the outer suburbs to be using transit, and thus aren't underrepresented (though I don't think I could ... perhaps for 120% ... 220% seems too high). Census data of racial use of transit for commuting would probably disprove that.

No, we can’t argue anything, because we don’t have usable data. For this to be usable we need:

1. Total number of transit trips of all types, not just commuters
2. Total number of black users from #1 above, thus providing the ratio of black users
3. Total number of users from #1 stopped but not charged by TTC
4. Total number of users from #2 stopped but not changed by TTC
5. Total number of users from #1 charged by TTC
6. Total number of users from #2 charged by TTC
7. Total number of users from both #1 and #2 populations during the different times and territories TTC patrols for trouble.

With the above complete data set we can look for racial bias. But we really need to dig into gender and age, since I’d bet TTC cops aren’t approaching old ladies of any race.

#7 is important as it’s possible that TTC cops patrol in areas or times when more marginalized people are using the TTC, thus skewing the statistics due to population dataset change.

 

[nfitz]

No, we can’t argue anything, because we don’t have usable data.

We can argue anything. One doesn't need data to argue.

We know systemic racism exists in Toronto. I question why anyone would start long statistical arguments to try and discount why TTC would be an exception to the rule.

Personally, I believe anyone with a large need to prove that there isn't systemic racism at TTC is systemically racist!

I'm done with this thread ... best agree to disagree at this point. Nothing good will come of this discussion.

 

[Neutrino]

^Holy fuck. That right there is why Trump was elected.

 

[Northern Light]

At the risk of being bashed from all sides in the above argument, may I suggest that you are not disagreeing in the way that you think you are.

Systemic racism has different definitions from different folks.

So its important to sort what one is talking about.

I do think its unquestionable that racism exists in Canadian and Torontonian society. It would border on the absurd to suggest otherwise. But certainly it is not overtly sanctioned in law or popular culture.

Systemic racism, as I would use the term, refers to actions/policies/procedures etc. that are not overtly racist, but rather have a disproportionately negative effect on one or more racialized groups.

An example might the be the height requirement to be a police officer. Now much reduced, but once six feet tall. There were many sensible reasons to have such a requirement at one time.

Typically based around the ability to physical intimidate or subdue a typical criminal suspect.

The assumptions on which that number was picked were based on the assumption of criminals and police alike as typically being males of a certain age of British or French descent.

While not expressly racist, in a more diverse society, it clearly was more limiting to some groups than others who might have wished to participate in policing; while also being based on an outmoded
perception of criminals.

There was nothing 'racist' about it, as we typically use the word, but it certainly had a negative effect on some racial groups.

Likewise, in the matter being discussed, it is possible that racial prejudice is not a substantial factor in fare enforcement by the TTC (though that merits closer examination)

But the fact that one group seems to be more targeted than others suggests a 'racist' effect, with or without intent.

That effect may be one caused by geography, or socio-economic status, or perhaps some other arbitrary decision on when and where to carry out enforcement action.

But in so far as it effects one group more than others, it would superficially meet the definition (as I understand it) of being systemically racist.

That is to say, in systemic racism, intent is not a requirement; only that the way in which a system has evolved has an adverse effect on a particular group.

It is possible (though I don't think evidence on this is yet clear) that prejudice per se is not the primary factor in the statistics being discussed.

But in so far as it is not, that doesn't make the outcome any less adverse to one group relative to another.

 

[pman]

Is there any way for the TTC to restore the integrity of its fare collection without charges of systemic racism, the inevitable investigation by the provincial human rights commission, and a Charter case ending up in the Supreme Court? I’d suggest that the answer is no for all practical purposes, and the rational response of members of every visible minority, or at least members of those visible minorities deemed by The Red Star to be victims of society, should ... emphasis on should...be to evade fates and assert racism in the event any TTC employees try to stop them. Perhaps BLM could make itself useful by shutting down Line 1 at rush hour in protest over racist fare inspection. Taking down Pride worked quite well for them, after all. The rational response of TTC management and our elected officials should be to pretend they’re doing something about fare evasion, while actually looking the other way and doing nothing, because who needs the pain? Maybe the TTC could lie about the statistics, or better yet not collect them at all. Diversity our strength.