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Switzerland Minarets Laws

It's the definition of "undesirable" that's key. A rational and reasonable argument for Sharia Law's undesirability can be made, but the same cannot be made for the minarets.

This is according to you, but not according to the Swiss. Why should you judge what is 'rational and reasonable' for them?

Xenophobia comes in degrees, so you cannot simply paint it as black and white.

I couldn't agree more which is why I think blanket terms like 'xenophobia' or 'racism' are problematic and have been rendered virtually useless through overuse. In short they are about shutting down dialogue rather than opening it.

There are 4 options for the Swiss (and Europeans in general). My problem is that the common citizen probably doesn't even consider them:

1) End immigration and watch your economy die.

Not true. There are many places in Europe that are actually overpopulated and do not need population growth through immigration, all the more so given housing shortages, stretched social programs and unemployment/economic issues. The greater concern is the rise of migrating people due to unliveable conditions in their homelands. Is the west supposed to integrate all of them at any cost?

2) Accept immigrants on strict conditions, and watch the development of an unappreciated, disconnected sub-class.

Preconditions should not be about denying basic human rights, the conditions are about assimilation to prevailing social norms that will help immigrants settle into society in their new homeland. It is a perceived lack of assimilation that often marginalizes immigrants in Europe and builds tensions between native citizens and newcomers.

3) Accept all immigrants and lose a lot of your cultural identity.

Europeans in general seem to welcome diversity even if they may be wary of losing their core traditional values, traditions and heritage etc.

4) ? The unknown option that energy should be expended on working towards.

Isn't the Swiss approach, or the French approach for that matter, just such an option? Immigrants are welcomed with reasonable conditions, 'reasonable' being that which is judged compatible with prevailing values and beliefs etc.
 
Isn't the Swiss approach, or the French approach for that matter, just such an option? Immigrants are welcomed with reasonable conditions, 'reasonable' being that which is judged compatible with prevailing values and beliefs etc.

I use logic, which is universal, to judge what is reasonable or rational, and the Swiss' minaret-ban is neither. If its purpose is to keep the Swiss happy, good for them. Unfortunately it will hurt their global reputation, help radicalize their mostly moderate Muslim population, and provide fuel for Islamists worldwide. Yes, they can do what they want, but it was an incredibly short-sighted move on their part. Your top-down rationalization of their actions seems a little naive to me. Keep in mind that this bill was launched by the far-right, and was heavily supported in areas with no Muslims. The Swiss cabinet knew of the potential for harm, and therefore, positioned themselves against the bill.

As much as I love Europe, these kinds of issues make me happy to be Canadian. Who knew our lack of identity (something we're often chastised for by the Old World) could end up being such a positive.

ps. An example of a reasonable condition (imo) = learn French or German
 
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Well, you are comparing countries based on where Canada is strong :rolleyes:

Working abroad; Canada tops global expats survey of best countries

Working abroad; Canada tops global expats survey of best countries

Choosing to live a life abroad as an expatriate is both an exciting and daunting prospect for first timers. But for those that muster the courage to leave the comforts of home, the experience is overwhelmingly a positive one.

In fact, expats generally lead better lives than those who stay close to home and the best expat lifestyle is found right here in Canada, a survey by global bank HSBC has found. That is of little help to Canadians, but to an Australian like me, life here has been rosy.

As the survey of more than 3,100 expats from more than 50 countries found, Canada is very expat-friendly when it comes to finding a place to live, finding a job, organizing a bank account, receiving health care, making friends, eating out and socializing.

When I arrived here two years ago with my boyfriend, who had been transferred here for work, I had completely set myself up and begun work within a month. Everything fell nicely into place, almost as smoothly as when as an expat journalist in communist China, the newspaper I had pre-arranged employment with had my entire life laid out upon arrival, including meals.

But where is a Canadian to go? The HSBC survey ranks Australia and Thailand, respectively, as the next best places to live, making these countries ideal locations for first-time expats. The United Kingdom and Russia rank low in terms of lifestyle, but high in terms of earning wages.
 
I use logic, which is universal, to judge what is reasonable or rational, and the Swiss' minaret-ban is neither.

... and I'll just bet you believe your logic to be more 'universal/reasonable/rational' than mine:rolleyes:

If its purpose is to keep the Swiss happy, good for them. Unfortunately it will hurt their global reputation, help radicalize their mostly moderate Muslim population, and provide fuel for Islamists worldwide.

Well if these 'mostly moderate' muslims are that easy to radicalize then they're probably not that moderate to begin with, in which case I really do question just who is being unreasonable and disrespectful here: the born and bred Swiss accepting immigrants but asking for some minor concessions on an architectural detail so as to respect the local built form/heritage, or the muslims that you perceive to be so unwilling to adapt something that is not even central to their religion as an accommodation to the new homeland that has taken them in...

As for inflaming Islamists, again not that hard to do. Good Lord, put out a satiric cartoon and see what happens. Bravo to the Swiss for refusing to be manipulated by such tactics!

Your top-down rationalization of their actions seems a little naive to me. Keep in mind that this bill was launched by the far-right, and was heavily supported in areas with no Muslims. The Swiss cabinet knew of the potential for harm, and therefore, positioned themselves against the bill.

Again, I absolutely would not tolerate or support anything that infringes on rights. This is not a right. As with anything else, the support of more negative elements of society may muddy things but at the end of the day we have to look through it. Adopting mosques to a swiss context, sans minarets in this case, is not a human rights issue. No further debate required. If they were banning mosques I'd agree with you and be protesting along side you in this thread.


As much as I love Europe, these kinds of issues make me happy to be Canadian. Who knew our lack of identity (something we're often chastised for by the Old World) could end up being such a positive.

This idea that Canada doesn't have an identity is patently wrong, even despite our diversity and levels of tolerance. We are a far younger nation, however, and one built on immigrants. The functioning of our society requires more tolerance and flexibility on these issues.
 
We are a far younger nation, however, and one built on immigrants.
We often hear this, but Canada was not built on immigrants, but instead by settlers. There's a distinct difference IMO between today's immigrants (such as myself, arriving in 1976) and the French and later British explorers and settlers that came to what would later become Canada and built a nation out of the woods and plains (with the help of Asian railway builders and other European labourers - also part of the original settlers), dealt with harsh climate, often hostile natives (they had good reason to be hostile of course), starvation, etc.

Of course a country doesn't stand still, and successive waves of immigration have impacted and shaped the original settlements, so they deserve credit for shaping Canada's demographic, but, today's immigrants, arriving by aircraft, moving in with family in Brampton or wherever (in my case 1970's Mississauga) while they get sorted with employment and housing have it easy compared to those settlers that built this country.
 
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True. The nature of immigration to Canada has changed enormously over the years, and one does wonder if this makes for more 'committed' Canadians or not. Unlike the Swiss or French we ask very little by way of accommodations of newcomers, and as seen in many threads here we justify this approach by endlessly deconstructing Canadian history and identity, the 'gun' of accusations of 'racism' constantly at the temple of national discourse.
 
Asking immigrants to completely leave their culture and history behind and totally assimilate completely into the local culture (i.e. single citizenship, denunciation of any other citizenship) is really asking them to lie. Most people, even if totally committed, cannot suddenly change who they are -- and all prior relationships to their birth country. Where you come from is always part of you.

The first generation will move here because they like the lifestyle, or for a better life, or for freedom from persecution.... the second generation will be Canadian (probably caught between cultures a little), the third generation will know of nothing other than being Canadian. It may not be exactly the same Canada, but nothing is ever the same - we are not the same Canada as 30 years ago, and not close to the same Canada 100 years ago.
 
Of course, but those changes now happen far faster. As was said before, for previous generations there was no 'going back' in their choice to come to Canada. It was tougher to get here and expectations were greater. Today, people can be in and out at a whim by merely getting an airline ticket, and there are little expectations on them. We have to wonder how 'committed' many of these arrivals are to begin with or will or will not become over time, and all the more so in a country like Canada where the level of immigration is so profound.

I don't disagree with you though. Many immigrants still struggle to get here and are commited to Canada and will pass these values on to their children. It's only that this may have once been more the norm among immigrants than what we see today.
 
... and I'll just bet you believe your logic to be more 'universal/reasonable/rational' than mine:rolleyes:

Make a rational argument to ban the steeples of one foreign religion's temples, and not the others.

Well if these 'mostly moderate' muslims are that easy to radicalize then they're probably not that moderate to begin with

If the majority irrationally discriminates against you as a minority, you become jaded. I am not suggesting that you are going to grab an AK-47 and head into the streets, but you will suddenly be standing on a slippery hill, with the crazies within your community at the bottom. You are going to wonder why the majority has singled you out, and done something so negligable that it seems like an act of provocation.

As for inflaming Islamists, again not that hard to do. Good Lord, put out a satiric cartoon and see what happens. Bravo to the Swiss for refusing to be manipulated by such tactics!

Yes, how brave of them. The Islamists are stupid and dangerous, but what do you call somone who pokes a rabid dog with a stick just for the hell of it? And yes, it seems very "just-for-the-hell-of-it", because the "concession" you speak of is targeted towards one religion only, and is completely stupid. Please don't be naive and suggest the ban has something to do with aesthetics. The far-right party has deemed minarets a symbol of militant Islam, and that is reasoning behind the ban. Does it matter that some of the most hate-filled mosques in the non-Muslim world don't have minarets? Does it matter that there are only four mosques with minarets in all of Switzerland? Does it matter that most of the support comes from areas with no Muslims at all? This is where I come back to my argument about a complete lack of rational and logic behind all of this.


Again, I absolutely would not tolerate or support anything that infringes on rights. This is not a right.

I agree that no human rights are being trampled. It is still completely narrow-minded and assinine, and very Swiss in that context. This is the country that stayed neutral through WWII.

And what if the Swiss wanted to ban Mosques? Isn't that up to them? Maybe they want to preserve their cultural identity as a Christian nation? Don't they have that right?
 
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Make a rational argument to ban the steeples of one foreign religion's temples, and not the others.

No need to. The steeples of other foreign religions are not at issue here. Minarets are at issue, and the rational argument against them, in a Swiss context at least, has already been made, and more than adequately so.


If the majority irrationally discriminates against you as a minority, you become jaded. I am not suggesting that you are going to grab an AK-47 and head into the streets, but you will suddenly be standing on a slippery hill, with the crazies within your community at the bottom. You are going to wonder why the majority has singled you out, and done something so negligable that it seems like an act of provocation.?

I agree that no human rights are being trampled..

How is there 'discrimination' when 'no human rights are being trampled'?

The fact that you're turning this into a clarion call for Jihad, arguing that even 'moderate' muslims should rightfully be inflamed by what basically amounts to a regulatory bilaw concerning an architectural detail - one that is purely 'cultural' and not religious - is beyond obdurate, and in light of this it is nigh on impossible to not see your point of view on this matter as anything other than polarizing and fundamentalist.

The 'moderate' view here is to be understanding of, and respectful of the fact that the Swiss are trying to negotiate the preservation of that which is important to them without turning their back on immigration, diversity and basic fundamental rights to religion.



The far-right party has deemed minarets a symbol of militant Islam, and that is reasoning behind the ban. Does it matter that some of the most hate-filled mosques in the non-Muslim world don't have minarets? Does it matter that there are only four mosques with minarets in all of Switzerland? Does it matter that most of the support comes from areas with no Muslims at all?

No, none of this matters! All you are doing is muddying the waters and manipulating the discourse in an effort to coerce people to your point of view. It doesn't matter what the far-right believes. Switzerland is a democratic nation and there are other points of view to balance the extremes of the far-right AND of arguments like yours. At the end of the day the moderate compromise position prevails and moderate individuals - i.e. the majority of people both native Swiss and immigrant muslim Swiss - will be content and will go on to coexist, the muslims worshipping in their minaret-less mosques in their new homeland and the Swiss enjoying the view of their traditional landscapes and built form.


And what if the Swiss wanted to ban Mosques? Isn't that up to them? Maybe they want to preserve their cultural identity as a Christian nation? Don't they have that right?

Again, muddying the waters... The very point here is that the Swiss are NOT banning mosques or slamming the door shut tight on muslim immigrants. Why do you lose sight of this??? It is you who persists in making this an issue of religious persection. The minaret like the burkha, as we are continuously told, are not religious symbols. They are cultural ones. This is a cultural issue, and the Swiss are trying to safeguard theirs in the interest of heritage preservation. It may not be what you appreciate but then don't go to Switzerland, and don't immigrate there if you are expecting it to be 100% accommodating to any single triffling thing you decide to conflate to the level of religious persecution.
 
No need to. The steeples of other foreign religions are not at issue here. Minarets are at issue, and the rational argument against them, in a Swiss context at least, has already been made, and more than adequately so.

Sorry, but you cannot claim that the context is "not the issue". The fact that Swiss are applying a law towards only one group of people demonstrates legislative discrimination.

Neutral: Canada passes a bill barring the sale of red cars.
Bad: Canada passes a bill barring the sale of red cars to black people.


Now, remaining consistent with your current argument, convince me that the above scenario is a-ok.

How is there 'discrimination' when 'no human rights are being trampled'?

Those two elements do not equate to each other. Are human rights being trampled in my aforementionned scenario? No one has the right to a red car. The Canadian people simply don't want black people in red cars in their country...


The fact that you're turning this into a clarion call for Jihad, arguing that even 'moderate' muslims should rightfully be inflamed by what basically amounts to a regulatory bilaw concerning an architectural detail - one that is purely 'cultural' and not religious - is beyond obdurate, and in light of this it is nigh on impossible to not see your point of view on this matter as anything other than polarizing and fundamentalist.

Spoken like one in the majority. You seem to have completely ignored that I purposely avoided the suggestion that the moderates go full-radical. I even specifically mentioned that no one should be taking to the streets with AK-47's, but they will and should feel slighted.

It is completely naive to suggest they remain emotionally neutral to this transgression. You're sitting here arguing that a reasonable muslim should simply shrug this off, and not even be slightly put-off by it all, and that if it annoys them, they were Jihadists to begin with.

Why do you think the Swiss cabinet came out against this bill?

It doesn't matter what the far-right believes.

The far-right conceived this motion, so if we are discussing the motivation behind it, I think the far-right matters. You seem content with top-down justification, when in reality, the motion was born on the right, and spread using fear-mongering (see posters).

Switzerland is a democratic nation and there are other points of view to balance the extremes of the far-right AND of arguments like yours. At the end of the day the moderate compromise position prevails and moderate individuals

Are you a big fan of direct democracy? Would you support it in Canada?

i.e. the majority of people both native Swiss and immigrant muslim Swiss - will be content and will go on to coexist, the muslims worshipping in their minaret-less mosques in their new homeland and the Swiss enjoying the view of their traditional landscapes and built form.

How quaint.


Again, muddying the waters... The very point here is that the Swiss are NOT banning mosques or slamming the door shut tight on muslim immigrants.

Show me where I suggested they were. Again, why did the Swiss cabinet speak out against the ban? Because they were smart and knew that since it had no solid rational, and singled out only Muslims, it would make Switzerland look bad to the rest of the world, and inflame relations with Muslims in Europe.

ps. I don't think you should lecture me on what it takes to be a moderate, because I've discussed this issue with maybe 20 people from varying political backgrounds, and all agreed that it was stupid. You are the only person who has come out supporting it. And from previous discussions where you labelled Canada as a "nanny-state", my guess is that you are far from moderate.
 
Roy G Biv, I agree that the law is dumb. As someone, as I mentioned, who technically could have voted on the issue if I cared to, I'm curious to ask this question. The Swiss have open free votes on everything. In a similar system with an open free vote how do you think similar legislation would fair in other western nations?

My guess based on populist sentiment is that it would have fairly similar levels of approval. Perhaps not in Canada because it is one of the only countries with an overwhelmingly positive view of immigration. The US on the otherhand has mixed views on immigration but it is open and has a high level of respect for religion and religious freedom.
 

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