Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[toaster29]

What do you mean by "current and future circumstances"? When the original subway lines were built in Toronto, they did not have the densities seen today in Toronto or Mississauga. We just keep pushing the acceptable 'benchmark' of acceptable population for subways higher and higher. If you took Toronto out of the picture, Mississauga has the highest population density in the province. The reason that Mississauga isn't able to grow into a truly urban built form is precisely because of the comparison to Toronto. We built a subway extension into Vaughan, a much less dense area.

 

[drum118]

What do you mean by "current and future circumstances"? When the original subway lines were built in Toronto, they did not have the densities seen today in Toronto or Mississauga. We just keep pushing the acceptable 'benchmark' of acceptable population for subways higher and higher. If you took Toronto out of the picture, Mississauga has the highest population density in the province. The reason that Mississauga isn't able to grow into a truly urban built form is precisely because of the comparison to Toronto. We built a subway extension into Vaughan, a much less dense area.

The different between Mississauga and Vaughan is the fact that an land owner for the Vaughan route was in the government, University of York wanted buses off their property, but most of all, the Province saw those empty lands as nice parking lots to take cars off the 400 and not have them go into Toronto. Mississauga doesn't have those issues.

At the same time, the subways went where the density was and Mississauga has none other than the city core and less than Toronto. What every route you take to get to the core, you have less riders per stations than the worse ones in Toronto today.

The Sheppard subway which cost $17 per rider on top what a rider pays today would be a drop in the bucket what it would cost if a line went to the core.

Subways don't always bring development like some think, but its the quality of service of local service that start the ball rolling and Mississauga is poor at that. There has been more proposal for development along Dundas to the point they gone no where. A good example is at Dundas and Confederation where there has been 6 condos proposed over the last 10 year with sales office and die. The last proposal call for an 18 story building on Dundas with 200 3 story townhouse behind it to the point its all townhouses now and this is one block from the Hurontario LRT. There supposed to be 3 towers across the street from this site that were approved years ago and no action at all. Another few just to the east of the LRT and still dead at this time.

The city wants density only in a few locations and not going to help building a subway. Best thing for Mississauga is LRT and BRT until 2075 or later. Running a tram-train to the core is the best option at this time off the Milton line.

Again, how can you justify a subway when only 30,000 riders go to Islington today for all of miWay routes????

 

[Transportfan]

If reaching Sherway is the goal, I dunno maybe continue west from Kipling using CP's ROW (well, tunneled below it). A spur could be sent south to Sherway with the rest veering across Etob Ck, then northward tunneled below the hydro ROW to Burnamthorpe.

Via CP + hydro ROW w/ Sherway spur
View attachment 128220

I wouldn't run the subway along Burnhamthorpe, as it isn't the primary east-west main drag through Mississauga that its often assumed to be, as there's mostly backlotted homes along it.. Dundas is more important and is easier to intensify.

 

[drum118]

I wouldn't run the subway along Burnhamthorpe, as it isn't the primary east-west main drag through Mississauga that its often assumed to be, as there's mostly backlotted homes along it.. Dundas is more important and is easier to intensify.

I guess you miss the memo back in the 80's, as that is where Mississauga SRT was to run to Sq One from Kipling. It was to run up the hydro corridor to Burnhamthorpe and then down the centre of the 403 and forgot where it was to stop to the west. Thought it was dumb then.

Until I see it in black and white, no subway will be using CP corridor west of Kipling with GO using that corridor instead.

I support the subway to Cloverdale and thats where it ends.

I don't know how people can vision an extension that will only carry less then 15,000 a day by 2040 at best pass Cloverdale. I guess a train every 15 minutes may meet the need, but more like 20 minutes.

If and when Mississauga builds density on Dundas for the blight there, that the place to put it with at least 3 stops or every 1 km. 30 years plus at this time.

 

[Hopkins123]

I guess you miss the memo back in the 80's, as that is where Mississauga SRT was to run to Sq One from Kipling. It was to run up the hydro corridor to Burnhamthorpe and then down the centre of the 403 and forgot where it was to stop to the west. Thought it was dumb then.

Until I see it in black and white, no subway will be using CP corridor west of Kipling with GO using that corridor instead.

I support the subway to Cloverdale and thats where it ends.

I don't know how people can vision an extension that will only carry less then 15,000 a day by 2040 at best pass Cloverdale. I guess a train every 15 minutes may meet the need, but more like 20 minutes.

If and when Mississauga builds density on Dundas for the blight there, that the place to put it with at least 3 stops or every 1 km. 30 years plus at this time.

A subway extension to Cooksville via Sherway and the Dundas corridor would probably attract a lot of ridership and directly links the Hurontario corridor's transit line to Toronto. It would also make for a good jump-off point for Dundas BRT heading west into Hamilton.

 

[drum118]

A subway extension to Cooksville via Sherway and the Dundas corridor would probably attract a lot of ridership and directly links the Hurontario corridor's transit line to Toronto. It would also make for a good jump-off point for Dundas BRT heading west into Hamilton.

It will not to justify building the line in the first place.

One has to look at not only the current ridership, but projection numbers at least 30 years down the the road as well what is plan for the route.

Bulk of the current ridership on Dundas is between Toronto and Hurontario with riders using Dixie & Tomken to get to/from work as well Hurontario to/from Brampton. Riders going to Toronto in the end is less than 30% then staying in Mississauga.

There are no plans for adding density or development to Dundas at this time, with most going to Hurontario and the city core, as well over at Erin Mills & Eglinton. Only big box is getting built at Dixie with a Chinese style mall of 100 stores or more, east of Dixie that being trying to get off the ground over 5 years thats has been vacant for years.

As for going west, the real drop off point is Mavis Rd for the local with a low number going to 403. One reason the express bus was kill going to Oakville. Neither Oakville or Burlington have the ridership for good quality service let alone going to an express bus before moving up to an light BRT and then BRT, considering it been in their master plan for over 15 years with a true BRT to be built come 2020 on those plans. Not going to happen come 2020.

When people really look at everything and do some vision, subway in Mississauga will never happen for anyone a live today, sorry to say.

As much As I want to see LRT from Kipling to Hurontario now, ridership is not there to support it. If this was the US, the LRT would be built, since they build these thing under 5 or 10,000 riders a day. They wouldn't build a subway.

 

[44 North]

I wouldn't run the subway along Burnhamthorpe, as it isn't the primary east-west main drag through Mississauga that its often assumed to be, as there's mostly backlotted homes along it.. Dundas is more important and is easier to intensify.

Totes. That, and it's a bit too close to Transitway. Bloor would probably be better overall (tho not sure how to get to MCC from there). But my reasoning used was that within the context of express-ish subways, it could be the optimal corridor to use. As well Burny has a pretty massive ROW and could actually use the backlotted properties to its advantage. Maybe not extreme like elevated, but perhaps variations of cut/cover (i.e some open cut others covered with concrete and landscaping). This is mostly fun discussion stuff. Some kind of multi-pronged light metro or LRT would probably be a better bet from Kipling. One branch to Pearson, one to Sherway, one to MCC.

 

[drum118]

Very old story once again raise its head.​

No issues with it running along Dundas as that where it should be in the first place and it will decrease ridership on the LRT and the BRT on Dundas. Every 3rd or 4th train depending on the time of day will be only need to carry riders.​

Could a subway be coming to Square One in Mississauga?​

 

[crs1026]

I could much more easily get behind a surface LRT on Dundas, turning north at Hurontario and utilising the Loop to access the MCC. Maybe that relieves the Hurontario line of any need to go round the Loop. Much cheaper, closer to needed volume, plenty of room in the center of Dundas. Probably almost as fast as lights are still spaced fairly far apart on Dundas. Leaves open the potential to route Line 2 to Sherway. Besides, the longer Line 2 gets, the less reliable it will be. Also reduces redundancy between the McCallion line, GO, and this line.
Sure, it requires a transfer at Kipling or Cloverdale, and it is an LRT and not a subwaysubwaysubway, but we need to plan with cost in mind. No more Ford vanity subways where not needed.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

I could much more easily get behind a surface LRT on Dundas, turning north at Hurontario and utilising the Loop to access the MCC. Maybe that relieves the Hurontario line of any need to go round the Loop. Much cheaper, closer to needed volume, plenty of room in the center of Dundas. Probably almost as fast as lights are still spaced fairly far apart on Dundas. Leaves open the potential to route Line 2 to Sherway. Besides, the longer Line 2 gets, the less reliable it will be. Also reduces redundancy between the McCallion line, GO, and this line.
Sure, it requires a transfer at Kipling or Cloverdale, and it is an LRT and not a subwaysubwaysubway, but we need to plan with cost in mind. No more Ford vanity subways where not needed.

- Paul

Naw. I like your lrt Dundas plan. I might like it better if part of it was elevated so it would miss some of the million lights on Dundas. BUT again why now the sudden no more vanity projects. Is future Shepard a vanity project?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Bonnie Crombie is running in the Mississauga East-Cooksville riding for the Liberals. Hmmm.

 

[Northern Light]

@Paclo I don't know if you moved Drum's post into two threads, or he reposted, but I think it would good to keep the discussion in one thread.

If you could move @crs1026 and subsequent posts over, that would be appreciated.

 

[drum118]

I could much more easily get behind a surface LRT on Dundas, turning north at Hurontario and utilising the Loop to access the MCC. Maybe that relieves the Hurontario line of any need to go round the Loop. Much cheaper, closer to needed volume, plenty of room in the center of Dundas. Probably almost as fast as lights are still spaced fairly far apart on Dundas. Leaves open the potential to route Line 2 to Sherway. Besides, the longer Line 2 gets, the less reliable it will be. Also reduces redundancy between the McCallion line, GO, and this line.
Sure, it requires a transfer at Kipling or Cloverdale, and it is an LRT and not a subwaysubwaysubway, but we need to plan with cost in mind. No more Ford vanity subways where not needed.

- Paul

That was the original idea when the EA started on Hurontario until Hydro One shot the idea of an LRT under their wires regardless at the new terminal or on Dundas. Since the city wasn't willing to cough up the extra $2 million to allow the BRT to be upgraded to an LRT in the future, its a dead horse now. There was a proposal I believe in September to revise the EA and update the design for removing all utilizes out the BRT ROW to allow it to be converted to LRT, but shot down at council. Council wasn't prepared to stop the current relocation of various things as well delay the process by 6-9 months to allow for the LRT as they wanted construction staring on the ROW in 2028 as plan as well not sure what impact would have on the funding from the Feds. I spoked to this matter and the city has shot themselves in the foot again and riding the wagon again.

 

[sixrings]

That was the original idea when the EA started on Hurontario until Hydro One shot the idea of an LRT under their wires regardless at the new terminal or on Dundas. Since the city wasn't willing to cough up the extra $2 million to allow the BRT to be upgraded to an LRT in the future, its a dead horse now. There was a proposal I believe in September to revise the EA and update the design for removing all utilizes out the BRT ROW to allow it to be converted to LRT, but shot down at council. Council wasn't prepared to stop the current relocation of various things as well delay the process by 6-9 months to allow for the LRT as they wanted construction staring on the ROW in 2028 as plan as well not sure what impact would have on the funding from the Feds. I spoked to this matter and the city has shot themselves in the foot again and riding the wagon again.

As we have learned from Brampton it’s never too late.

 

[drum118]

As we have learned from Brampton it’s never too late.

It is with the current mayor and councilors. The mayor would love to have the subway, but not the LRT, but would be a decade or two down the road.