Still a lot of ignorance from the downtowners re: T.O?

[TrickyRicky]

Although I think Eug, that the behaviour is universal. That is, people who formerly live in the city centre and move out to the suburbs tend to make similar argument to rationalize the decisions they make. This is also true of people who move away from Toronto or to Toronto for that matter.

What I am advocating for, and this is something I could teach myself everyday, is that it is better to be what you are for than against what you aren't.

For the record I think that in the rhetoric of suburban / downtown dichotomy, all the city centre which encompasses most of the old city of Toronto would be considered downtown. People who live in Forest Hill, The Beach, High Park, etc. are all downtown elitists such as myself. Infact, it would be a perfect example of the very ignorance being discussed for a person living on St. Clair or the Danforth to not consider themselves a downtown elitist in this discussion.

 

[Eug]

Although I think Eug, that the behaviour is universal. That is, people who formerly live in the city centre and move out to the suburbs tend to make similar argument to rationalize the decisions they make.

Or they might actually like living there. Go figure.

For the record I think that in the rhetoric of suburban / downtown dichotomy, all the city centre which encompasses most of the old city of Toronto would be considered downtown. People who live in Forest Hill, The Beach, High Park, etc. are all downtown elitists such as myself. Infact, it would be a perfect example of the very ignorance being discussed for a person living on St. Clair or the Danforth to not consider themselves a downtown elitist in this discussion.

That's an odd statement. People I know have moved away from downtown to High Park and The Beach, simply because they didn't want to live downtown anymore.

 

[SlickFranky]

That's an odd statement. People I know have moved away from downtown to High Park and The Beach, simply because they didn't want to live downtown anymore.

That's sort of the point. There is no 'downtown'...it's an arbitrary designation. Maybe to you 'downtown' is the area bordered by Bloor, Jarvis, and Spadina, but when 905ers ask if I live downtown I've learned to just say yes, because I know by 'downtown' they mean 'old city of Toronto'. To them Little Italy is very much downtown, as is High Park, The Beach, St Clair W, The Danforth, etc. Yet ask anyone in London, Paris, Tokyo, Berlin, Hong Kong, etc 'which way is downtown?' and you'll get a pretty puzzled look in response. 'Downtown' is just another construct used to try and categorize and separate people and places more simply. In reality the borders are so blurry there's no real point in even discussing what is and what isn't 'downtown', and even less point trying to pit us 'downtowners' against some other equally arbitrary 'suburban' lot. It's not nearly the dichotomy it's been made out to be.

 

[DTowner]

? Condos and townhouses are a lot more expensive downtown. What are you talking about?

Where did you live in Scarborough? I'd have to say that many parts of downtown are a lot sketchier than where I live (which is in the Bluffs). The good part of downtown though is even if it's sketchy, you can feel safe in that there are lots of people around usually, so sketchiness may not be as problematic. If you're stuck in a sketchy area of Scarborough, you may be all alone with the sketchiness.

Anyways, pretty much every Scarberian or Etobicokan I've met has been to downtown multiple times and had a look around. I can't say the same thing about downtowners. I should know, as I was one of them.

Townhouses and houses are more expensive downtown – but not condos. Buying a condo downtown costs the same as in the suburbs. Once you leave Metro Toronto the prices start to drop, but even then not by how much you'd expect them to.

I've lived in Scarborough for the first 25 years of my life (in a few places) and downtown for the past 14 — on Jarvis, and I still feel safer.

 

[DTowner]

That's sort of the point. There is no 'downtown'...it's an arbitrary designation. Yet ask anyone in London, Paris, Tokyo, Berlin, Hong Kong, etc 'which way is downtown?' and you'll get a pretty puzzled look in response.

Yes, however, those cities have at least double the population of Toronto and have been designed differently so that the 'downtown core' has spread out and beyond and immersed itself into the rest of the city so that there is indeed a difficulty in knowing what is 'downtown'. Although, in London they do refer to the central area as 'the City' (or something).

Defining an area as 'downtown', 'midtown' or 'the suburbs' is like defining art — one may not know what art is, but one sure does know what it isn't! You have a point though about how the definition of downtown changes depending on where you live. When I lived in Scarborough, Rosedale and south to the lake was downtown (the old City of Toronto). Now that I do live in the old City of Toronto, downtown for me is Eaton Centre and south to the lake (often I refer to it as down-downtown), with midtown being across the Bloor St bridge and the suburbs starting at Victoria Park (I'm not good with the west end).

 

[Eug]

That's sort of the point. There is no 'downtown'...it's an arbitrary designation. Maybe to you 'downtown' is the area bordered by Bloor, Jarvis, and Spadina, but when 905ers ask if I live downtown I've learned to just say yes, because I know by 'downtown' they mean 'old city of Toronto'. To them Little Italy is very much downtown, as is High Park, The Beach, St Clair W, The Danforth, etc. Yet ask anyone in London, Paris, Tokyo, Berlin, Hong Kong, etc 'which way is downtown?' and you'll get a pretty puzzled look in response. 'Downtown' is just another construct used to try and categorize and separate people and places more simply. In reality the borders are so blurry there's no real point in even discussing what is and what isn't 'downtown', and even less point trying to pit us 'downtowners' against some other equally arbitrary 'suburban' lot. It's not nearly the dichotomy it's been made out to be.

We don't live in London or Paris. We live in Toronto. And if you ask Beach residents, they will not say they live downtown. Same goes for High Park.

Defining an area as 'downtown', 'midtown' or 'the suburbs' is like defining art — one may not know what art is, but one sure does know what it isn't! You have a point though about how the definition of downtown changes depending on where you live. When I lived in Scarborough, Rosedale and south to the lake was downtown (the old City of Toronto). Now that I do live in the old City of Toronto, downtown for me is Eaton Centre and south to the lake (often I refer to it as down-downtown), with midtown being across the Bloor St bridge and the suburbs starting at Victoria Park (I'm not good with the west end).

I live in Scarborough. None of my neighbours consider High Park to be downtown. Rosedale probably though. Or at least as close to downtown as one can get anyways.

Even when I lived downtown, I considered Rosedale "close enough".

Townhouses and houses are more expensive downtown – but not condos. Buying a condo downtown costs the same as in the suburbs. Once you leave Metro Toronto the prices start to drop, but even then not by how much you'd expect them to.

Condos downtown cost more. They may not be a lot more, but they're still more for the equivalent condo.

I've lived in Scarborough for the first 25 years of my life (in a few places) and downtown for the past 14 — on Jarvis, and I still feel safer.

I asked where. There are a lot of crappy areas in Scarborough, and I wouldn't want to live in the crappy areas of Scarborough either. However, the nice areas of Scarborough are... well... nice.

 

[King of Kensington]

Anecdotal evidence, but most 905ers I talk to would have supported Smitherman. Most of the GTA is represented by the Liberal party after all.

Every outer-416 seat is held by the Liberals, federally and provincially, and yet people there voted overwhelmingly for Ford.

 

[King of Kensington]

The city considers the Central Area to be: Bathurst to the Don, and up to the CPR tracks and Rosedale Valley Rd. And that's a pretty generous definition.

This seems reasonable. Calling High Park or the Beaches "downtown" - which are around 7 or 8 km from the city center - seems absurd. The problem is that for some reason a lot of suburbanites seem to think any part of the City developed before 1945 is "downtown."

Maybe it's good for civic boosterism. Our city has a downtown population of 700,000 - five times that of downtown Chicago's and nearly half the population of Manhattan!

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Our city has a downtown population of 700,000 - five times that of downtown Chicago's and nearly half the population of Manhattan!

What boundaries are used to get that population?

 

[Electrify]

Every outer-416 seat is held by the Liberals, federally and provincially, and yet people there voted overwhelmingly for Ford.

Let's see what happens after the provincial election this fall. I'm betting we are going to see a lot of seats in the outer 416 turn blue. Either that, or those living in those areas may be the most schizophrenic voters in the country.

 

[Electrify]

For the record I think that in the rhetoric of suburban / downtown dichotomy, all the city centre which encompasses most of the old city of Toronto would be considered downtown. People who live in Forest Hill, The Beach, High Park, etc. are all downtown elitists such as myself. Infact, it would be a perfect example of the very ignorance being discussed for a person living on St. Clair or the Danforth to not consider themselves a downtown elitist in this discussion.

We should be looking at one's eco-footprint, rather than where they live in determining how smug we should be. If someone lives in a condo at Empress Walk, gets their groceries from the Loblaws downstairs, and works in one of the near by office towers, are they worse than those who live downtown but drive to Markham for work, simply because of where they live? It's not about where you live, but how you live.

Also, I think we need to redo how we define Toronto's urban area. Right now it is the (inner) city (Toronto, East York, York), inner suburb (Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough), and outer suburbs (905). The word "suburb" means a developed area beyond the city limits, and the inner-suburbs have been part of Toronto for more than 10 years. Even before 1998, many perceived these areas as part of Toronto proper as many maps drew Metropolitan Toronto as a single city, and there was limited distinctions between municipalities.

I think we should look at it as inner-city (Toronto, York, East York), outer-city (Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough), inner-suburbs (Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Pickering, Ajax), and outer-suburbs (Oakville, Aurora, Newmarket - possibly Burlington, Whitby, and Oshawa though they are technically in separate metro areas).

 

[CDL.TO]

What boundaries are used to get that population?

He's sarcastically mocking people who think that the entire former City of Toronto is "downtown".

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

He's sarcastically mocking people who think that the entire former City of Toronto is "downtown".

OK, got it.

 

[King of Kensington]

Where else can you have a large detached house on a ravine, 7 km from the CBD...and still be "downtown"?

 

[TrickyRicky]

"Or they might actually like living there. Go figure."

Eug, I was not suggesting that people don't want to live where they do. I also make no value judgement to suggest that one location is more or less suitable to any indivdual. What I am saying is that people behave and say things in order to justify their present circumstances. The mind lines up to convince the self that the decisions we make are good and based on sound evidence and real conditions. The response you gave above is a perfect illustration of this phenomenon.