Still a lot of ignorance from the downtowners re: T.O?

[Eug]

"Or they might actually like living there. Go figure."

Eug, I was not suggesting that people don't want to live where they do. I also make no value judgement to suggest that one location is more or less suitable to any indivdual. What I am saying is that people behave and say things in order to justify their present circumstances. The mind lines up to convince the self that the decisions we make are good and based on sound evidence and real conditions. The response you gave above is a perfect illustration of this phenomenon.

Personally I think your post was actually quite condescending.

That is, people who formerly live in the city centre and move out to the suburbs tend to make similar argument to rationalize the decisions they make.

To say there are advantages to living outside downtown and that some people like living there isn't rationalization. It's just common sense.

There are advantages to living downtown too, and you don't hear me saying that people who say they prefer downtown are just rationalizing their decisions.

 

[DTowner]

He's sarcastically mocking people who think that the entire former City of Toronto is "downtown".

But the entire former "City of Toronto" is downtown, isn't it? Downtown plus Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, East York and York comprised Metro Toronto. When amalgamation occured, downtown plus S, E, NY, EY and Y became "The City of Toronto". Isn't that how it happened?

 

[Eug]

But the entire former "City of Toronto" is downtown, isn't it? Downtown plus Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, East York and York comprised Metro Toronto. When amalgamation occured, downtown plus S, E, NY, EY and Y became "The City of Toronto". Isn't that how it happened?

Like I said before, friends of mine moved out of "downtown" to the The Beach or High Park or whatever, because they got sick of living "downtown".

I considered The Beaches, but wanted a detached home with modern construction, a driveway with parking for at least 2 cars, and a big yard, which unfortunately often means $2 million bux there so The Beach wasn't really an option for me.

 

[MisterF]

Also, I think we need to redo how we define Toronto's urban area. Right now it is the (inner) city (Toronto, East York, York), inner suburb (Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough), and outer suburbs (905). The word "suburb" means a developed area beyond the city limits, and the inner-suburbs have been part of Toronto for more than 10 years. Even before 1998, many perceived these areas as part of Toronto proper as many maps drew Metropolitan Toronto as a single city, and there was limited distinctions between municipalities.

The definition of suburb isn't set in stone and it doesn't necessarily mean outside city limits. It can mean different things in different cities and to different people. I don't think anyone would argue that Ottawa doesn't have suburbs, even though the entire built up area is within city limits. Same applies for downtown.

 

[W. K. Lis]

As the town of York grew, it just developed property in the township of York.

When the town of York became the city of Toronto in 1834 to its first appearance as a city, it included space for development (called Liberties in the map).

Everything after was just annexation of suburbs.

 

[adma]

But the entire former "City of Toronto" is downtown, isn't it? Downtown plus Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, East York and York comprised Metro Toronto. When amalgamation occured, downtown plus S, E, NY, EY and Y became "The City of Toronto". Isn't that how it happened?

Then you might as well refer to Manhattan at large as "downtown" New York City.

 

[King of Kensington]

But the entire former "City of Toronto" is downtown, isn't it? Downtown plus Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, East York and York comprised Metro Toronto. When amalgamation occured, downtown plus S, E, NY, EY and Y became "The City of Toronto". Isn't that how it happened?

No. The city does not claim this.

The Central Area is Bathurst to the Don, the lake to the CPR tracks and Rosedale Valley.

Amalgamation didn't make Toronto's metro area one iota bigger, and it didn't result in a quadrupling of the downtown population.

 

[toraerach]

Then you might as well refer to Manhattan at large as "downtown" New York City.

I think this is essentially the problem here. When we're talking about the former City of Toronto, we have no word for it really. People say "Downtown" as a substitute for "the former City of Toronto," which is too much of a mouthful in normal speech. Unlike in New York, we have no separate name for the central city (which arises from the very different histories of New York's formal division into boroughs, and Toronto's division into informal boroughs post-Megacity). Since amalgamation, the entire way we locate ourselves within Toronto has become confusing and imprecise. There's no more easy distinction between "the City" and "Metro." Even terms like "East End." "West End," and "North Toronto" have become ambiguous. Sometimes, for example, the media will say something that happened in Scarborough occurred in the East End (which is sort of understandable if not untraditional). At other times, the media will identify an area of North York as North Toronto (again understandable, if less forgivable). I've even heard (though rarely) Mississauga described as part of the West End.

The other reason, I think, for the confusion has to do with downtowns elsewhere in Ontario. In many towns and cities in this province, downtown is any part of the central city that has streets lined with retail, dense housing, etc. In short, "downtown" to many Ontarians, if not Canadians, means urban and vice versa. Someone coming from Brampton, Peterborough, Oshawa, etc. might assume any area like this in Toronto is part of downtown (as these parts of the city have "downtown" qualities to them). The Danforth looks downtown to these people, St. Clair looks downtownish, etc. even if locals would not identify them as such. Then there are motorists, for whom "driving downtown" means driving anywhere without free parking, with lots of pedestrians, streetcar tracks, etc. (and this includes people from the 416 as much as it does those from the 905 and beyond).

No. The city does not claim this.

The Central Area is Bathurst to the Don, the lake to the CPR tracks and Rosedale Valley.

There is the phenomenon of the incredible shrinking downtown, which isn't by any means a Toronto thing. From my home in the West End, going to College and Spadina (for example) is "going downtown." But going from College and Spadina down to Yonge and Queen, let's say, is also "going downtown."

 

[King of Kensington]

Very good points, lesouris. I would say it generally goes:

Central Area - as defined above

North Toronto - north of Rosedale Valley and the CPR, east of Bathurst

West - west of Bathurst

East - east of the Don

 

[Dan416]

I'm certain I've heard "west end" to refer to areas like Etobicoke, Mississauga, Oakville. Not so much Brampton and Milton though. Hamilton definitely not, and likewise I doubt Burlington either.

 

[King of Kensington]

Some population figures (based on census tracts):

Central Area: 167,500.

When I use a more narrow definition - i.e. where the shopping, financial towers and tall buildings are - encompassing roughly University (Bathurst below Queen) to Jarvis and up to Davenport, I get a figure of 64,700 from the 2006 census. Specifically this is census tracts 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 34, 35, 62.01, 62.02, 63.01, 63.02, 88 and 89.

 

[urbandreamer]

I live in High Park--aka the West End. Downtown is where it's crazy busy, tons of stuff to do, office workers, highrise condos etc. When I say I'm going downtown, I mean Queen and Spadina (in the last decade due to Freedville etc it's starting to include to Bathurst and Queen) to Queen and Jarvis-sometimes perhaps to Parliament, although that area is too quiet really to be downtown for me, College to about Front St--sorry harbourfront isn't downtown, it's quite suburban really.... The Annex is sort of downtown, but really it too is its own area including the university. Yorkville isn't downtown--it's midtown. Y&E is uptown.

High Park, Dundas West, the Junction, WQW, Parkdale, Queen East, North Yonge--all great streetcar suburbs with excellent high streets--but not downtown!

Miss etc is not the west end. They're totally different cities.

 

[Eug]

Yeah, in my 17 years in Toronto, I have never heard anyone call Mississauga or Oakville as "The West End". I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it seems to me that is extremely uncommon.

I hear High Park called that, and I hear Etobicoke called that too. Similarly, Riverdale and Scarborough are "The East End", but Ajax definitely isn't.

 

[King of Kensington]

I think the 1970s planning definition was actually pretty accurate (we still use the same boundaries for the Central Area):

Downtown - College to the Gardiner, Jarvis to University/Simcoe/Bathurst

South Midtown - College to Bloor, Jarvis to University

North Midtown - Bloor to CPR/Rosedale Valley (still exists on some neighborhood maps today, basically "Greater Yorkville)

 

[toraerach]

Very good points, lesouris. I would say it generally goes:

Central Area - as defined above

North Toronto - north of Rosedale Valley and the CPR, east of Bathurst

West - west of Bathurst

East - east of the Don

I generally agree, though I think the borders between Central Toronto and the surrounding areas are a bit too fluid to draw absolute borders on a map (unlike with the outer boroughs, we don't really have former municipal borders to divide them - not ones most people remember/would make sense today anyway). And aside from Downtown, there's the even harder to pin down Midtown and Uptown (though the consensus nowadays seems to be moving towards Yonge and Eglinton as Midtown central, and Uptown's become kind of obsolete). The borders between the old City and East York/York are also difficult to pin down in casual speech. And then there are neighbourhoods that almost transcend these divisions into former boroughs/ends in everyday conversation. For example, if someone calls me when I'm on Dawes crossing Taylor-Massey Creek (let's say), I'd tell them "I'm in East York." But, if I'm in Leaside, I'm in Leaside (an artifact of early Metro municipal divisions, perhaps). Ditto York vs. Weston (for the same reasons?). Speaking of which, York's name seems to be so ambiguous that it's falling out of common usage. Take the hypothetical phone call again - if I say "I'm in York," do I mean "I'm in the former City of York," "I'm in York Region," "I'm at York University," or "I'm being old time-y and calling Toronto York"? They really should have renamed it "West York" after its Eastern enclave broke off. I remember it being confusing even before amalgamation.

I'm increasingly hearing people refer to everything East of the Don as "East York." This drives me absolutely crazy (not that I'd be able to tell you where the exact borders lie without consulting a map).

I'm certain I've heard "west end" to refer to areas like Etobicoke, Mississauga, Oakville. Not so much Brampton and Milton though. Hamilton definitely not, and likewise I doubt Burlington either.

As far as I'm concerned, the West End stops at the Humber. The borders of Etobicoke, Scarborough, and North York (although to a lesser degree) are easy enough to remember that most people will use them properly in casual conversation. Beyond the borders of Toronto, I would divide the 905 into the Western GTA (Peel and Halton), the Northern GTA (York), and the Eastern GTA (Durham), but I would only use those terms when talking to someone unfamiliar with the area, otherwise using the proper city/region names depending on which is applicable. But that's just a personal preference really.