St Clair West Transportation Masterplan

[Monarch Butterfly]

Would it? How many GO stations do you anticipate on that line between Kipling station and a station at Jane? How many between Jane and Weston?

Streetcars aren't for longer distance services. For that build subway and RER-like services.

The longest tram route is The Kusttram (Coast Tram) service that operates along the Belgian coast from Knokke in the north to De Panne in the south – a distance of 68 km (42 miles).

See https://www.seebeautifulplaces.com/2024/12/world-longest-tramline.html

 

[JasonParis]

I know this is off topic. But too bad the St Clair ROW couldn't be extended from Gunns loop to Scarlett Rd as part of a bigger Master Plan. Maybe even past Scarlett to Dundas, but that's dreaming.

I can still see it happening, possibly looping at a Lambton Station on the Milton-Midtown GO LINE.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I would take a bus over the St Clair streetcar with its dismal average speed any day.

St Clair gets a lot of hate, but honestly I find that it moves fairly fast. The replacement buses are typically terrible in comparison.

 

[TRONto]

St Clair gets a lot of hate, but honestly I find that it moves fairly fast. The replacement buses are typically terrible in comparison.

Agreed. It could be way better but I choose the ride from Line 1 to Gunns over a Line 2 +bus which might be 5+ minutes faster

 

[sebajun]

St Clair gets a lot of hate, but honestly I find that it moves fairly fast. The replacement buses are typically terrible in comparison.

I don't disagree. But it could be WAY better. For eg., I rode Line 5 from Mt. Dennis to Yonge and Eglinton in a total of 16 minutes. The same trip (Gunns Loop to St. Clair Station is ~35 minutes on St. Clair). So Line 5 is more than 2x faster. I think we can realistically get the same distance on St. Clair down to like 20 minutes, using full signal priority, increasing speed limits, and getting rid of a bunch of stations.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

In my mind, there's nothing that would separate the St Clair, Harbourfront, and Spadina cars from light rail with transit priority switched on. All a matter of speeds and stop spacing.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

In my mind, there's nothing that would separate the St Clair, Harbourfront, and Spadina cars from light rail with transit priority switched on. All a matter of speeds and stop spacing.

If they get proper transit signal priority for the light rail lines that really works properly as advertised,

THEN duplicate those transit signal priority for the legacy streetcar network​

AND get double-point track switches for the legacy streetcar network​

AND proper controls for those switches (instead of the cheapest) for the legacy streetcar network​

AND remove close spaced streetcar stops for the legacy streetcar network​

THEN some of the legacy streetcar lines that use right-of-ways (IE. part of the 501 along the Queensway, 509, 510, part of the 511, 512) could be upgraded to become "rapid transit lines".

 

[thenorth]

If they get proper transit signal priority for the light rail lines that really works properly as advertised,

THEN duplicate those transit signal priority for the legacy streetcar network​

AND get double-point track switches for the legacy streetcar network​

AND proper controls for those switches (instead of the cheapest) for the legacy streetcar network​

AND remove close spaced streetcar stops for the legacy streetcar network​

THEN some of the legacy streetcar lines that use right-of-ways (IE. part of the 501 along the Queensway, 509, 510, part of the 511, 512) could be upgraded to become "rapid transit lines".

Users don’t care about the loops.

Signal priority and fixing the switches are major benefits to users.

 

[Jonny5]

After living up there for a few years before and after the ROW construction it seemed very obvious to me that if you want the 512 to be faster, the answer is dump the underground loop at St. Clair West and have a fully covered on-street transfer area. They seem to shut that loop for rework every two years anyway, so why bother with it? Build a large canopy across the street over the whole space where the portal is now and have the streetcar simply glide in like any other stop and then move on without the needless churn into and out of the station. Make it so buses could use it too.

 

[JasonParis]

In my mind, there's nothing that would separate the St Clair, Harbourfront, and Spadina cars from light rail with transit priority switched on. All a matter of speeds and stop spacing.

Level-boarding would be great too and probably a prerequisite to get them on our "subway" maps. Also, as often discussed, removing some stops as well.

 

[Northern Light]

St Clair gets a lot of hate, but honestly I find that it moves fairly fast. The replacement buses are typically terrible in comparison.

Fascinating; Perception is everything.

I find it slow.

Its slower today than when it was first completed (current iteration of the exclusive ROW); but even at it best, I found it a bit pokey.

I think with proper TSP and removal of about six stops per direction (4 from St Clair W to Gunns, and 2 from St. Clair W to Yonge ) would go along way. But there's also a U-Turn for cars to remove, a few left hand turns for cars to nix, and higher operating speeds.

I think it should feasible to drop about 2M each way for the eastern segment (off best times), and about 8M in the western segment.

Total active end-to-end time (excluding St. Clair West layover, tonight, is 34 minutes. I would assert that it would not be unreasonable to drop this .

Given that the route is 6.53km long, that gives an average travel speed of 11.5km/ph

I don't think its a lot to ask to get to 16.3 km/ph which is what the above would equate to.

 

[EnviroTO]

Line 5 is 8 minutes from Cedarvale to Eglinton (Yonge). Streetcar 512 is 8-9 minutes from St.Clair West to St.Clair station which is about equal to the distance from Chaplin to Eglinton (Yonge). So it isn't abysmal... one would assume 512 would greatly benefit from a stoplight priority effort.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Line 5 is 8 minutes from Cedarvale to Eglinton (Yonge). Streetcar 512 is 8-9 minutes from St.Clair West to St.Clair station which is about equal to the distance from Chaplin to Eglinton (Yonge). So it isn't abysmal... one would assume 512 would greatly benefit from a stoplight priority effort.

I'd love to see St Clair get signal priority as it would greatly improve things, no doubt.

But it is exactly as you say. Relatively fast and efficient to get between St Clair West and St Clair, which is a trip I do regularly. Line 5 is quicker between Cedarvale and Eglinton, but I am not about to favour going up to Eglinton to cross to the other side of Line 1 over just taking the 512 on St Clair.

I suspect that those that commute further west of St Clair West station may be more cynical of its runtimes, but it currently serves the eastern stretch well and could do better with TSP. I don't see the need to cut stops either, given it is ultimately a local surface transit route rather than rapid transit.

 

[junctionist]

The 512 can be painfully slow west of St. Clair West station during the day when people get on/off at most stops. But it can be only slightly slower than the subway late at night when it's mostly empty. The same could probably be said about most surface routes, though, on major crosstown arterials.

Vehicles in general get signal priority at most intersections on major crosstown streets north of the downtown core like St. Clair, Lawrence, etc. When the streetcar or bus doesn't have to stop for passengers at frequently-placed stops, it's quick.