SRT to be shut down for refurbishment (2015)

[nfitz]

So its either Bombardier trying to specifically rip Toronto off, or Toronto is artificially inflating the price to make the option less attractive.

Vancouver's 2009-2010 orders were 4.1M in average. The initial order of 34 cars were 4.3M each; option 1 (exercised) were 3.7M each for 14 cars; options 2 (did not exercise) were 3.1M each for 24 additional cars. The rolling stock requirement for SRT without extension should be around the same as Vancouver's base order + option 1.

Those are for Mark II's though aren't they? Wasn't the 2004 estimate for Mark I's? Which would require Bombardier to spend a lot of money to retool. Which would drive up the cost.

 

[rbt]

So, in order to make everything works, they choose LRT cars that requires even bigger change.

Which is approriate. It ensures we will not run into a problem with MKII/III being discontinued for an even larger MKIV replacement which requires a second round of modifications.

By converting the SRT to world-standard LRT requirements now we are essentially guaranteed that we will find reasonably priced rolling stock in 2040, 2060, 2080, ... from a number of vendors.

Rolling stock isn't a one time thing.

To keep costs low you either need to order a ton of custom trains (like downtown streetcars; worlds largest tram order) or order something that a number of other cities also want.

SRT in its current configuration accomplishes neither of these and since I don't forsee us having 70km of SRT in the near future; we modify to buy the same thing as everybody else wants to buy.

 

[rbt]

Those are for Mark II's though aren't they? Wasn't the 2004 estimate for Mark I's? Which would require Bombardier to spend a lot of money to retool. Which would drive up the cost.

Vancouver has not ordered Mark I's in a very long time.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

So, in order to make everything works, they choose LRT cars that requires even bigger change..
Kennedy curve too sharp? Rebuild it. Ellesmere tunnel not enough clearance? Cut it open and raise it. Not enough clearance for stations? Raise the roof or lower the platform. Station too short? Extend it. Guideway unable to support longer and heavier vehicles? No problem, modify every column and rebuild the entire superstructure! Basically, the only thing left from the original SRT is the bottom half of each support column...

And the pay-off for LRT conversion will be greater than a simple upgrade to Mark II cars. ICTS will not have a place in the LRT network that is being built in Scarborough.

 

[snowystar]

Which is approriate. It ensures we will not run into a problem with MKII/III being discontinued for an even larger MKIV replacement which requires a second round of modifications.

By converting the SRT to world-standard LRT requirements now we are essentially guaranteed that we will find reasonably priced rolling stock in 2040, 2060, 2080, ... from a number of vendors.

Rolling stock isn't a one time thing.

To keep costs low you either need to order a ton of custom trains (like downtown streetcars; worlds largest tram order) or order something that a number of other cities also want.

SRT in its current configuration accomplishes neither of these and since I don't forsee us having 70km of SRT in the near future; we modify to buy the same thing as everybody else wants to buy.

There are more choices than LRT and LIM ICTS train. If they choose to use a smaller rotary motor train, there wouldn't a need to modify the station and rebuild the entire elevated guideway, and there are many manufactures making those. Even if they choose to run more frequent 2-car LRT train, there wouldn't be the need to extend platform. However, they choose to run 3-car trains so the train can be interlined with Eglinton line, but now apparently that's no longer the case...

As for train order, yes, that's a valid concern. But how much a premium there is for a small order? 1 or maybe 2 millions per car? How much does the conversion cost? More than a billion? So this mean at least 400 cars has be ordered in order to break even. Assume SRT would need 40 cars for each generation and each train last for 30 years, the total train order won't reach 400 cars until at least the year 2315. By that time, the guideway would need to be rebuilt several time already...

 

[rbt]

There are more choices than LRT and LIM ICTS train. If they choose to use a smaller rotary motor train, there wouldn't a need to modify the station and rebuild the entire elevated guideway, and there are many manufactures making those.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. It doesn't appear TTC or Metrolinx have looked into simply junking the LIM and signalling system and going to a standard 3rd rail small-metro based design with the signalling/ATC packages from the Yonge line.

 

[officedweller]

Here are the non-LIM Metro cars used in Copenhagen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnsaldoBreda_Driverless_Metro

Although quality control may be an issue:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/03/26/ansaldobreda-problems-arent-in-los-angeles-alone/

Copenhagen Metro cars:

http://greg-vassilakos.com/traindwg/traindwg.htm

 

[kEiThZ]

It's going to be entertaining to hear how politicians defend the shut down of the SRT to the public.

I predict that Scarborough will deliver another Rob Ford like character to the mayor's chair out of anger.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

The public is well aware of the impeding SRT shutdown. It's been in the news.

 

[drum118]

There are more choices than LRT and LIM ICTS train. If they choose to use a smaller rotary motor train, there wouldn't a need to modify the station and rebuild the entire elevated guideway, and there are many manufactures making those. Even if they choose to run more frequent 2-car LRT train, there wouldn't be the need to extend platform. However, they choose to run 3-car trains so the train can be interlined with Eglinton line, but now apparently that's no longer the case...

As for train order, yes, that's a valid concern. But how much a premium there is for a small order? 1 or maybe 2 millions per car? How much does the conversion cost? More than a billion? So this mean at least 400 cars has be ordered in order to break even. Assume SRT would need 40 cars for each generation and each train last for 30 years, the total train order won't reach 400 cars until at least the year 2315. By that time, the guideway would need to be rebuilt several time already...

As for premium price, TTC pays the most premium per car on large order than systems buying only a few cars. Something is wrong with this picture.

 

[gweed123]

It's going to be entertaining to hear how politicians defend the shut down of the SRT to the public.

I predict that Scarborough will deliver another Rob Ford like character to the mayor's chair out of anger.

I seriously wouldn't be surprised if a mayoral candidate (Stintz perhaps?) runs on a B-D extension option instead of the SRT shutdown.

 

[ssiguy2]

I seriously wouldn't be surprised if a mayoral candidate (Stintz perhaps?) runs on a B-D extension option instead of the SRT shutdown.

A obscene waste of funds but no doubt they will think about it. A couple billion on an underground subway as Toronto will not allow the bohemian atmosphere of suburban roads be ruined and what does Toronto get?...........not one foot of expanded rapid transit. Just improve the line add heating mechanism and run the MK11 trains and run it elevated along Eglinton to DM and then tunnel. Not only the cheapest of options but also will have more than twice the capacity of the Eglinton line and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to run.

 

[kEiThZ]

A obscene waste of funds but no doubt they will think about it. A couple billion on an underground subway as Toronto will not allow the bohemian atmosphere of suburban roads be ruined and what does Toronto get?...........not one foot of expanded rapid transit. Just improve the line add heating mechanism and run the MK11 trains and run it elevated along Eglinton to DM and then tunnel. Not only the cheapest of options but also will have more than twice the capacity of the Eglinton line and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to run.

Nonsense. Shut down the RT and you don't need ridiculous grade-separated transit from STC to Malvern. Transit City style LRT will suffice.

 

[kEiThZ]

I seriously wouldn't be surprised if a mayoral candidate (Stintz perhaps?) runs on a B-D extension option instead of the SRT shutdown.

I hope that is the outcome and not another Rob Ford character.

I called it last time. Hope I'm wrong this time.

 

[kEiThZ]

The public is well aware of the impeding SRT shutdown. It's been in the news.

They may be aware of it. But they won't get angry until they are waiting ten deep at Kennedy to board shuttle buses. Watch the fun then.