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SmartTrack (Proposed)

The UPX vehicles are supposed to be able to convert to EMU, I'm pretty sure I've read that.

Yup, I remember reading that also. I'm just not sure if the FLIRT vehicles have the same capability. Like I said, the UPX vehicles are high platform, which would cause complications on the GO system, since you'd have GO RER vehicles using high platforms, and regular GO bi-levels using low platforms. Not to mention the cost of retrofitting every station for high platform trains. Better off to go with low-floor vehicles.
 
I think the 6-car Stadler FLIRTs would be a good choice. They literally look like a hybrid between a GO train and a subway car, which is exactly the image that GO RER needs to convey: frequency and accessibility of a subway, comfort and speed of a GO train. Your point about a surface subway is well founded, 44 North.

The only sticking point is whether these vehicles can be converted from DMU to EMU, or if once they're purchased that's what you get.

That is a nice looking train. But I'm still fixed on the idea of single levels. I guess I don’t know enough about railways and technology to not sound like a tool, but basically I’d like RER and SmartTrack to resemble a subway as much as possible. I feel like that is what is most desired by current and future transit users in the GTA. No padded seats, no carpeting, no luxury, no bilevels. In other words as much like a subway train in look, feel, and configuration as we can make it. And perhaps not unlike what was dreamt up during the GO-ALRT days.

Many laud the current Prov regime for bringing the RER discussion to the table, and I do too. But as a refresher to those who weren't aware, we were very close to having it decades earlier...

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from here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/npachal/6221276861/

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from here: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2107.shtml
 

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That is a nice looking train. But I'm still fixed on the idea of single levels. I guess I don’t know enough about railways and technology to not sound like a tool, but basically I’d like RER and SmartTrack to resemble a subway as much as possible. I feel like that is what is most desired by current and future transit users in the GTA.

So you're arguing that because of the "subways subways subways" derp, the public won't ride something with an upper deck, so that's what we should plan around?

The single biggest reason you don't see double-decker subway trains in the world (underground RER in Paris and other RERish implementations notwithstanding) is because when you're digging a tunnel underground, every foot of height matters. Capacity at the rush can be gained by shrinking down to sub-2-minute headways which subways get away with because their operating environment is unique to the subway network and not part of a wider multi-operator system.

When you're dealing with surface rail running on the conventional railway network, the vertical space requirements are already set, and double-deck is possible. And because you're in a mainline train type environment for signalling and train control, you probably have a lower theoretical train frequency ceiling than a subway for rush hour capacity crunches --- only the most aggressive ERTMS-type systems today are getting the headways down to metro-like levels, and they're still generally wider-spaced than fully-isolated networks (contrast Crossrail at 2.5 minute headways with 75 seconds on Vancouver's SkyTrain).

So why not take advantage of the fact there's room for 90% more capacity per unit of train length? The 5 feet of air above a single-deck train is basically wasted space, so why not put seats there?

The lower deck could be configured very subway-like, with limited seating and lots of hand-holds so it's optimized for the five minute short-hop traveller, and the upper deck could be configured with more longer-haul seating a la GO or BART that someone who'll be riding for 20+ minutes can climb up to. (Note that despite being single-deck, the GO ALRT trains you posted were proposed to have conventional GO-style seating quads, not a subway-style layout, and I imagine that had it been built the on-board look and feel from the customer's perspective would be much closer to a current GO bilevel than a T1)
 
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Combined reply to 44 North and Platform 27:

I can certainly see the argument on both sides, and I share the desire to have GO RER look "subway-esque". I think that the ideal is a hybrid between a subway vehicle and a GO vehicle, in terms of both form and function. TTC subway vehicles aren't suited for longer distance travel, but they do have a very efficient layout. GO trains are well suited for longer distance travel, but their interior layout makes them inefficient for anything other than commuting into or out of a single point.

The point that Platform 27 raises about height is also important. I envision SmartTrack eventually running through a Central Tunnel, so in that case bi-levels would add to the tunnel diameter (and thus the cost) pretty substantially. If that is a cost that is willing to be swallowed in order to increase capacity by running bi-levels, then that's a choice that can be made. Your point about configuring the lower deck for "short haul trips", with mostly standing room, and the upper deck for longer trips is certainly an interesting suggestion. One thing that I would add to that is mandatory no-stand zones from the doors leading up to the stairwells, so people from the upper deck don't have to fight their way through a crowd to get out.
 
So you're arguing that because of the "subways subways subways" derp, the public won't ride something with an upper deck, so that's what we should plan around?

The single biggest reason you don't see double-decker subway trains in the world (underground RER in Paris and other RERish implementations notwithstanding) is because when you're digging a tunnel underground, every foot of height matters. Capacity at the rush can be gained by shrinking down to sub-2-minute headways which subways get away with because their operating environment is unique to the subway network and not part of a wider multi-operator system.

When you're dealing with surface rail running on the conventional railway network, the vertical space requirements are already set, and double-deck is possible. And because you're in a mainline train type environment for signalling and train control, you probably have a lower theoretical train frequency ceiling than a subway for rush hour capacity crunches --- only the most aggressive ERTMS-type systems today are getting the headways down to metro-like levels, and they're still generally wider-spaced than fully-isolated networks (contrast Crossrail at 2.5 minute headways with 75 seconds on Vancouver's SkyTrain).

So why not take advantage of the fact there's room for 90% more capacity per unit of train length? The 5 feet of air above a single-deck train is basically wasted space, so why not put seats there?

The lower deck could be configured very subway-like, with limited seating and lots of hand-holds so it's optimized for the five minute short-hop traveller, and the upper deck could be configured with more longer-haul seating a la GO or BART that someone who'll be riding for 20+ minutes can climb up to. (Note that despite being single-deck, the GO ALRT trains you posted were proposed to have conventional GO-style seating quads, not a subway-style layout, and I imagine that had it been built the on-board look and feel from the customer's perspective would be much closer to a current GO bilevel than a T1)

True, and excellent synopsis. But it’s worth noting that a key selling point for Tory’s SmartTrack plan was its "surface subway" moniker. People hear that, and they genuinely think a subway train on our GO lines. But when they see it’s actually a two-storey behemoth, many would probably view it as slower and inferior to an actual subway. Or wonder whether it will have bathrooms, sleeping quarters, a dining car, snack carts, etc. "'tis no subway", they’ll say.

I’d also assume the issue of new infrastructure, viaducts, stations, noise walls, bridges, etc will be that much harder to sell. People see a two-storey train, they think loud and large, not sleek and silent. The NIMBYism and opposition to that thing stopping near people’s homes or flying over their backyards could be bad.

And re: the point about tunnels - perhaps some new tunnels will eventually be required? Say, a downtown Union bypass tunnel, or along Don Mills to rejig the RH corridor. Larger trains = larger tunnels = higher costs. Noise walls too will have to be larger and higher.

I get what you’re saying, I’m definitely not disagreeing with it. But I think people underestimate the little things. IMO even carpeting and seating configuration are crucial to the debate, and how smoothly RER/ST can be implemented. We all saw what happened with Ford getting elected, and Doug coming too close for comfort. The SRT is a somehow slow streetcar in traffic, subways are free, crack-cocaine/extortion/potential complicity in homicides and jailhouse stabbings are the private problems of an average guy...This is crazy town, people are dumb, and the voting public can easily throw a wrench into the spokes and put years of work into the trash.

And re: the GO-ALRT configuration. I guess we’d never know what could’ve happened with the plan. But perhaps they would’ve moved towards something like BART. If I’m not mistaken, Toronto’s subways weren’t always planned to have the L-shaped seating arrangement. And I believe we also had carpeting at one point.

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So you're arguing that because of the "subways subways subways" derp, the public won't ride something with an upper deck, so that's what we should plan around?

The single biggest reason you don't see double-decker subway trains in the world (underground RER in Paris and other RERish implementations notwithstanding) is because when you're digging a tunnel underground, every foot of height matters. Capacity at the rush can be gained by shrinking down to sub-2-minute headways which subways get away with because their operating environment is unique to the subway network and not part of a wider multi-operator system.

When you're dealing with surface rail running on the conventional railway network, the vertical space requirements are already set, and double-deck is possible. And because you're in a mainline train type environment for signalling and train control, you probably have a lower theoretical train frequency ceiling than a subway for rush hour capacity crunches --- only the most aggressive ERTMS-type systems today are getting the headways down to metro-like levels, and they're still generally wider-spaced than fully-isolated networks (contrast Crossrail at 2.5 minute headways with 75 seconds on Vancouver's SkyTrain).

So why not take advantage of the fact there's room for 90% more capacity per unit of train length? The 5 feet of air above a single-deck train is basically wasted space, so why not put seats there?

The lower deck could be configured very subway-like, with limited seating and lots of hand-holds so it's optimized for the five minute short-hop traveller, and the upper deck could be configured with more longer-haul seating a la GO or BART that someone who'll be riding for 20+ minutes can climb up to. (Note that despite being single-deck, the GO ALRT trains you posted were proposed to have conventional GO-style seating quads, not a subway-style layout, and I imagine that had it been built the on-board look and feel from the customer's perspective would be much closer to a current GO bilevel than a T1)

There is more to this than just appearances, which, whether you want to believe it or not, has a lot to do to change the opinion of the general public on a service. Branding is a multi billion dollar industry.

Bi-Level EMUs can accelerate fast, but never as quickly as single level EMU's. Its a simple weight to powered axle issue.

When stops are really close together, like with Smarttrack, people dont want to climb up a flight of stairs just to get off 5 minutes later.

Bi-Levels are often used because making long trains means you need really long station platforms. We already have very long station platforms.

The London Overground is the model we are emulating with Smarttrack, and it exclusively uses single level trains. Lets not reinvent the wheel.
 
There is more to this than just appearances, which, whether you want to believe it or not, has a lot to do to change the opinion of the general public on a service. Branding is a multi billion dollar industry.

Bi-Level EMUs can accelerate fast, but never as quickly as single level EMU's. Its a simple weight to powered axle issue.

When stops are really close together, like with Smarttrack, people dont want to climb up a flight of stairs just to get off 5 minutes later.

Bi-Levels are often used because making long trains means you need really long station platforms. We already have very long station platforms.

The London Overground is the model we are emulating with Smarttrack, and it exclusively uses single level trains. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

London Overground is a good example. And yes, I agree with everything you're saying. My vote is for single level EMUs, with the existing bi-levels running the exurban routes (Kitchener, Niagara, Barrie, with potential future routes to Brantford, Peterborough, and Cobourg). Furthermore, make them low-floor so that you don't need different platform heights for bi-level and RER service.
 
The London Overground is the model we are emulating with Smarttrack, and it exclusively uses single level trains. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

I don't disagree with your argument, but I want to point out that London Overground couldn't run double decker trains even if they wanted to. Double deckers can't fit into the British loading gauge.
 
Bi-Levels are often used because making long trains means you need really long station platforms. We already have very long station platforms.
However, for every GO platform, 2 new platforms need to be built.
In addition, we may end up choosing trainset that benefits from a platform raise.
Plus, a lot of the infill stations may not have room for full-length trains.

Then shorter level-boarding platforms may still provide a faster boarding experience with an efficient bilevel, to the point that it feels more like boarding a subway train than a GO train. It's not the era of waiting in lines and old-fashioned paper tickets anymore, a farecard tap and a level walk onto an European bilevel, feels very much like stepping into an up-sized subway train in many ways. Also, the London Overground is more corridor constrained than Metrolinxs' GO corridors are, with trains needing to fit under bridges and occasional small sections of tunnel. Metrolinx does not have such a restriction.

I agree single levels are a great choice, but it is far from the only choice because of Metrolinx's network is already optimized to fit large bilevel trains. Because of infrastructural reasons, it is possible that bilevel EMUs may become a better fit for SmartTrack, and given a specific price actually move more people than a single-level. But changes are being made to the point where it may be possible to run subway-like 2-minute headways once the underground Metrolinx corridor gets built (various proposals mentioned in the "Metrolinx 2031" plan). At which point, it begins to heavily favour single-level subway style trains as nothing in the world outperforms a well-tuned subway train route in train frequency. But that may not happen to Metrolinx corridor (2-minute headwdays) for a few decades, well beyond the lifetime of a bi-level EMU.

There was a reason we ended up with long bi-levels pushing an incredible crush load of 4000 people -- one of the most passenger-dense passenger trains in the developed Western world (with no people hanging off the sides of trains, like in developing countries). We were train-trip-limited -- One upon a time, we had to run on freight corridor, and it cost quite a bit per train run in the day, so we had to cram as many people as possible per train. The invention of the Bombardier BiLevel in 1979 dramatically improved the efficiency of GO, and it remains popular to this date, and will probably be part of the GO network till the 2030s or 2040s (electric locomotive driven, for the limited expresses). Now Metrolinx owns the majority of the GO network, this is about to change -- possibly goodbye bilevels within a few decades. So it could happen. But the Metrolinx GO network is at a point where SmartTrack may actually end up being the most efficiently served by bilevel EMUs (platforms, platform length, number of commuters, etc).

Even with SmartTrack infills, the station density is still MUCH LESS than a typical subway, and the performance profile of a bilevel EMU may actually be a good fit. It could happen either way. But for tight train slotting between UPX trains, it's quite possible they'll use single-level EMUs, in a pursuit towards eventual subway-tight headways along the SmartTrack route (improve this, improve that, resignal, then finally the USRC bypass tunnel, remove discontinued crossovers, and bam -- full physical separation from all other GO routes -- 2-minute headways become possible on the GO network! But that's likely not till after the 2030s, and possibly long enough beyond the lifetime of a bilevel EMU.
 
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What about the potential of using bi-level EMUs for the main GO RER lines, and single level EMUs for the 416 GO RER/SmartTrack? That would reduce operational flexibility in terms of the fleet, but would provide an instant visual differentiation between the two. It would become pretty clear to people that if you're boarding a bi-level, you're bound for Union, and if you're boarding a single level, you're bound for the Central Tunnel. If you were on a single level, it would also mean that within the 416 you would be making additional station stops compared to the full GO RER routes.
 
That's certainly possible -- Metrolinx did mention they are looking to go to a "diversified fleet". Initially, I think Lakeshore East/West RER will be initially electric-locomotive-driven at first. A few RER routes need to eat up the spare 12-car bilevels (existing and on order, including new cab cars), to free up other RER routes for a brand new trainset. I think the first distinctive new trainset for the GO network will probably the Kitchener-Stoufville merged RER otherwise called politically as "SmartTrack". No new trainsets would be needed for Lakeshore RER (for now), the existing bilevels are capable of 15-minute frequency RER service with a bit of assisted boost from a good performing electric locomotive, and good corridor resignalling, and some service rejigging and/or additional track (for passing/express trains).
 
Yes, this is sounding quite fishy.

We have Tory's former campaign team lobbying for Uber, SmartTrack and for First Gulf. First Gulf is interested in both SmartTrack (Tory's map showed a stop serving it) and the Gardiner East plans as it owns the Unilever site. Eric Miller, a transport adviser that co-authored the "studies" of a rail line that became SmartTrack, wrote that newly-released report claiming a 10 minute delay if the removal option for the Gardiner is chosen.

There's a whiff of something, and it ain't Sunlight soap.
 
Looks like John Tory also knows that projects need champions to advance.

Irrespective of the merit of the projects, it is nice that Tory is taking his transit proposal very seriously and giving resources to advance it.
 

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