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SmartTrack (Proposed)

ssiguy2 said:
Until Toronto accepts this reality and begins to tax itself at an appropriate level then it will never become the truly world class city that it could be.
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And that won't happen until the "game" is changed.

You can be sure that if Ottawa were to offer additional money for the ST overage, that money would not be raised by taxing Fredericton or Kamloops. Similarly, if Doug Ford agreed to pick up the difference, he would not do that by taxing Windsor or Thunder Bay.

The reality is, the extra money will have to be raised in Toronto.

But the "game" of politics says it is quite acceptable to demand the money from Ottawa, and let them be the bad guys when taxes go up. And then demand money from Queens Park, and take credit for pressuring the big guys until they cough it up.

Taxation in this country is a game in which we are taxed out of one pocket and then the politicians try to look like they have fought the good fight to bring us money that came from another pocket. Except - it's just giving us our money back.

I can't fault Toronto politicians for taking the easy route and playing the game - and doing it well.

It's the game that needs to be changed.

- Paul
 
SaugeenJunction said:
A few things to note:
  • If the Province won’t pay the cost increases, it looks like Bloor-Lansdowne gets cut.
  • St. Clair Old Weston now only has 2 platforms serving 3 tracks
  • King-Liberty now is just one island platform serving 2 tracks
I am not super concerned with the platform cuts - it may be the result of the OnCorr development process and the realization that you can have fewer platforms for local trains to serve based on the emerging service patterns and track utilization.
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I have been looking at this closely and definitely concur with the sense that this project is still very good and much needed (well the costs are crazy but alas). I get that Smarttrack was a ridiculous election thing from Tory - but a lot of what was promised will still be more or less delivered, albeit in different places - these new stations fill a lot of gaps that we should be filling - more connections to growing neighbourhoods like LV, more connections to higher order transit etc.

While I have never been super keen on the disconnect between services and connectivity planned for GO, what I will say is dropping the platforms at LV and St. Clair probably makes a lot of sense. (From what I can tell upon further assessment only two tracks will be served at St. Clair - the plans show the second track from the east as quite far from the platform) so they will simply be two side platforms with a barrier between the eastern one and the express tracks. ) The reason I say this is that it doesn't really make sense to have local and express platforms at every station - which is the case at Weston, Mt. Dennis, Bloor.

IMO the optimal layout is dropping Weston from Express trains in the long term, and adding Woodbine. That way Express trains stop only at stations with major higher order transit connections.
 
Reecemartin said:
IMO the optimal layout is dropping Weston from Express trains in the long term, and adding Woodbine. That way Express trains stop only at stations with major higher order transit connections.
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Ah, Woodbine. The initial announcement was made several years ago. Would we not expect that there would be shovels in the ground by now, especially since it is a prerequisite to fuller use of the whole Georgetown South corridor? (PS - in the announcement, Mr Verster drew a link between building Woodbine and replacing Etobicoke North, which was necessary to implement the now-built tunnels under the 401-409, and stated that the station would be in service "as soon as possible").

Transit-oriented development is not showing much progress in Etobicoke, either up at Woodbine nor down at Mimico.

It's about time we held ML and QP's feet to the fire about the lack of progress here.

- Paul
 
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Allow me to take the soapbox and whine for a moment. Closing Etobicoke North, opening Woodbine in it's place and declaring that an adequate replacement is silly. The two will serve completely different areas.

My personal pet idea that no one else seems to have ever dreamed of is a station at Islington (no bias, lol). There's existing density there, more planned (see the 1 Adriatic development), and crucially, unlike Kipling, Islington has a proper highway 401 interchange that allows all movements to and from the highway.
 
Islington Express Bus said:
Allow me to take the soapbox and whine for a moment. Closing Etobicoke North, opening Woodbine in it's place and declaring that an adequate replacement is silly. The two will serve completely different areas.

My personal pet idea that no one else seems to have ever dreamed of is a station at Islington (no bias, lol). There's existing density there, more planned (see the 1 Adriatic development), and crucially, unlike Kipling, Islington has a proper highway 401 interchange that allows all movements to and from the highway.
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I tend to agree. I would have thought that Islington would have great connectivity to the northwest, and southwards…. where moving to Woodbine would actually add distance to many of the existing riders who use Etobicoke North. (Which is not that well placed)
Woodbine wins the paper analysis because of the intensive development that is proposed for that precinct…. None of which has happened as yet.
If it weren’t for the delay imposed on the quad tracking I would be happy to see Woodbine deferred indefinitely, or at least until some of the development actually materializes.
It’s just disappointing to see the time effort and money spent to dig those complicated tunnels…. Only to see them left unused.
So much for the claim that Ford is making development happen faster and better…. Developers who sign up for TOD need to meet their commitments.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Ah, Woodbine. The initial announcement was made several years ago. Would we not expect that there would be shovels in the ground by now, especially since it is a prerequisite to fuller use of the whole Georgetown South corridor? (PS - in the announcement, Mr Verster drew a link between building Woodbine and replacing Etobicoke North, which was necessary to implement the now-built tunnels under the 401-409, and stated that the station would be in service "as soon as possible").

Transit-oriented development is not showing much progress in Etobicoke, either up at Woodbine nor down at Mimico.

It's about time we held ML and QP's feet to the fire about the lack of progress here.

- Paul
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I mean the tracks are slowly getting put in, I wouldn't read into the delay that much. The site makes sense for a station even with minimal redevelopment to minimize the transfers for passengers from the west on the Kitchener Line to get to the airport, and connect to Line 6.
Islington Express Bus said:
Allow me to take the soapbox and whine for a moment. Closing Etobicoke North, opening Woodbine in it's place and declaring that an adequate replacement is silly. The two will serve completely different areas.

My personal pet idea that no one else seems to have ever dreamed of is a station at Islington (no bias, lol). There's existing density there, more planned (see the 1 Adriatic development), and crucially, unlike Kipling, Islington has a proper highway 401 interchange that allows all movements to and from the highway.
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The existing site has very little potential / catchment, moving it allows a lot more interesting stuff to happen.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I don't know if it will slow down GO electrification plans and these rising costs may actually expediate the process. Electrification sooner , as opposed to building mega garages that people can use for free, would make the operational savings costs come much faster as a big chunk of GO's budget is for diesel to run the trains.

As for these soaring costs for ST, why should Ontario taxpayers pay for it? Toronto is already getting the massive GO expansion for free and these stations were at Toronto's request assuming that QP would also pay for them. KW, Ottawa, and London are expanding their RT networks but unlike Toronto, actually have to pay for a chunk of it. Perhaps if Toronto had some skin in the game, we would see some rationalizing of these costs.

Toronto citizens and City Hall seem to be under this illusion that they should get everything free. The ONLY reason why Toronto says it can't afford it is because they don't tax themselves appropriately unlike every other Ontario city. The reason the TTC is having to cut services is because they have the lowest property tax rates in the whole damn province and this gap will continue to rise as again Toronto taxes aren't going up as fast as every other city is because they expect QP to always come to their rescue. Toronto needs to grow up and act like an adult.
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This kind of finger pointing at the City of Toronto is not helpful. You could just as easily point the finger at GTA municipalities with massive populations of commuters who live somewhere cheaper but come into Toronto to use our highways, roadways, transit, and public services daily at no cost.

This blame directed at municipal governments is just a distraction from the fact that we underfund public transit projects everywhere, and that they need to be considered essential public services that must be invested in by federal and provincial government. Government investment in subsidizing single passenger cars and the roadways, parking lots, and highways they use far outmeasures needed investments in transit at every level of govt, everywhere.
 
dtmtp2022 said:
This kind of finger pointing at the City of Toronto is not helpful. You could just as easily point the finger at GTA municipalities with massive populations of commuters who live somewhere cheaper but come into Toronto to use our highways, roadways, transit, and public services daily at no cost.

This blame directed at municipal governments is just a distraction from the fact that we underfund public transit projects everywhere, and that they need to be considered essential public services that must be invested in by federal and provincial government. Government investment in subsidizing single passenger cars and the roadways, parking lots, and highways they use far outmeasures needed investments in transit at every level of govt, everywhere.
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Not to claim that I know how Toronto's taxes are structured, but I assume the companies these commuters are paying a corporate tax plus a tax on the property itself, meanwhile the commuters and workers are going to have lunch or shop at business in Toronto - contributing to the local economy. I think its unfair to claim that these commuters contribute nothing.
 
^It would be extremely naive to think that anyone at QP is raising Ontario's funding for GTA transit projects by taxing Windsor, or Thunder Bay. Similarly, it would be extremely naive to think that anyone in Ottawa is raising the federal share of GTA transit support by taxing Swift Current, or Nanaimo, or Fredericton.

The taxation that funds GTA transit is being imposed on the GTA.

This being the case, it's a silly and foolish game for municipal politicians to blame Ontario, or Canada, for their shortfalls. The entire regime is just political theatre so that local politicians don't have to be bad guys by getting their hands dirty with taxation, and so that politicians at the provincial and federal levels buy popularity by giving us our money back.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
^It would be extremely naive to think that anyone at QP is raising Ontario's funding for GTA transit projects by taxing Windsor, or Thunder Bay. Similarly, it would be extremely naive to think that anyone in Ottawa is raising the federal share of GTA transit support by taxing Swift Current, or Nanaimo, or Fredericton.

The taxation that funds GTA transit is being imposed on the GTA.

This being the case, it's a silly and foolish game for municipal politicians to blame Ontario, or Canada, for their shortfalls. The entire regime is just political theatre so that local politicians don't have to be bad guys by getting their hands dirty with taxation, and so that politicians at the provincial and federal levels buy popularity by giving us our money back.

- Paul
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Can you explain? I don't know of any tax being pushed on one geographic area in Ontario and not another. You can argue that there are more people filing income taxes in Toronto than in Timmins, extracting more money from the former. But that doesn't mean any city is taxed more or less than others proportionally.
 
NoahB said:
Can you explain? I don't know of any tax being pushed on one geographic area in Ontario and not another. You can argue that there are more people filing income taxes in Toronto than in Timmins, extracting more money from the former. But that doesn't mean any city is taxed more or less than others proportionally.
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My premise is that government works best when the people who spend tax dollars are the ones who have to directly face the taxpayer to raise the money.

If a province pays $X billion in taxes to Ottawa and then receives the same amount back in benefits, there is no need for the funds to make the trip to Ottawa at all. Better if Ottawa declines to get involved, and the province does the taxing. The impact on the taxpayer is the same, but the transparency and dialogue with the taxpayer suffers.

Ottawa collects far more money from each Province than is needed to support federal programs or to equalise wealth across the country. A growing amount is just given back to the source, with a charade of photo ops.

I do suspect that the majority of the money that Ottawa pays to fund transit in the GTA originates from revenue sources in the GTA. (If Fredericton or Red Deer discovered that they were paying for Toronto’s Smarttrack, their reaction would not be pretty). It would be better if the federal tax structure collected less money and Ontario collected more themselves.

If a project goes over budget and needs extra funding, that funding has to come from somewhere. In my view it has to come from the people who will benefit from the result, and not from the country as a whole.

- Paul
 
Northern Light said:
A report to Executive Ctte next week sends out alarm bells.

The already grossly inflated project budget of 1.463B for a small number of above-ground rail stations ( A station budget worthy of current Toronto deep-buried subway station projects) is set to go up, substantially.

The City is looking to request the province to pick-up the tab for the increase of 234M.

Should the province say 'No', City staff want to return to Ctte/Council with 'options' as in, there is no way the City feels it can foot this bill.


This is very time-sensitive, so we will know the answer shortly:

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Recommendations:

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Anyone know what came of this? I see it was adopted by council at the end of March (https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2023.EX3.9), but did the province pony up the money? Was the DB contract for Bloor-Lansdowne awarded by the April deadline?
 
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