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SmartTrack (Proposed)

Is there any indication in the report that UPX may be studied as the western leg of SmartTrack?

The short answer seems to be "no". UP Express is mentioned only as a separate service using the corridor. It's noted as a given, and there is not a hint that it could be restructured as part of other transit ideas.

The way the Eglinton leg has been so carefully delimited as a separate topic within the overall staff review, suggests that either a) they are positioning it for a negative recommendation without impuning the rest of the proposal, or b) they are positioning it for a hard-sell affirmative response. Either way, it's refreshing that the City isn't just sidestepping the concerns with this segment on the strength of Tory's mandate in the election. Clearly, he hasn't sold anyone on this part of the plan.......not yet, anyways.

- Paul
 
Extending the Eglinton LRT to the airport as originally planned is still obvious best alternative. You'd even get a "one seat ride" to the airport from Kennedy.
 
Extending the Eglinton LRT to the airport as originally planned is still obvious best alternative. You'd even get a "one seat ride" to the airport from Kennedy.

wasn't the plan that it go to a terminus at Renforth.....if so, you got a one seat ride to near the airport ;)
 
Ok, I see you are doubting the viability rather than whether it is techniclly possible. Apologies.

I confess to no knowing what admoish means - I can't even put the word in contect. A couple beers to many perhaps?

One typo off (fixed OP), but it is admonish. No worries about your beers, it is not a common word.

Can you point out a single European city that deferred a piece of LRT line because the demand was too low - and then went ahead and built heavy rail only the same alignment with 15-minute service instead? How is skepticism that we'll really be building heavy rail on Eglinton West silly?
This is a legitimate debate, and there will be many disagreements from all sides.

However, I must admonish that the demand won't be too low (in due time). The now-woefully-outdated study doesn't account for huge factors outlined below. Specific huge factors weren't even factored in back when they did the study for ECLRT. Read on to realize why.

Yes, there's a true legitimate debate about the route too - Square One Mississauga for ECLRT or SmartTrack, would change the passenger throughput math completely. A station in downtown mississauga suddenly makes any kind of Eglinton rail more useful. I see it is possibly only a future SmartTrack extension plan away (~8km from Airport Corporate) but, of course, extending ECLRT there from Mt. Dennis may even be cheaper than the Eglinton, despite the extra distance. I'd think more of Mississauga would want to catch a SmartTrack train due to its downtown destination unlike ECLRT. But the suburbs between Dixie area and Square One can easily turn this to a Scarborough Subway debate. No doubt countless debate ahead. Airport or Corporate Airport Centre or Square One for ECLRT? The ultimate end goal might be ECLRT to airport, and SmartTrack to Square One. That would, in my opinion, justify passenger traffic (more justifiable than the Scarborough Subway, and worth tunneling for) for heavy rail under Eglinton, with so many destinations opened up, including thanks to the future Mt Dennis interchange. I like the SmartTrack creating the Eglinton spur (partly trenched where ROW possible, partly underground where ROW is gone) only if they eventually extend it to Square One downtown, otherwise, it is the part of SmartTrack plan that will be the most costly per passenger in Toronto if it never extends (Shepperd II, worse than Scarborough subway). Many Euro cities are brave enough to phase extensions through low densities in the pursuit of a jackpot (like Square One), and while politically spun differently on this side, this isn't precedentless and is far smarter than the Sheppard/Scarborough subway.

We could see Tory could play the "big cost savings" card and chop Eglinton in favour of an ECLRT extension along the SmartTrack spur, arguing SmartTrack justifies the ECLRT extension, as they did not earlier estimate passenger traffic assuming existence of SmartTrack. And we could see Tory instead play the "eventual Square One" card instead with SmartTrack. I see it going in either direction if different choices from a feasibility study are presented to public referendum. I am not opposed either direction.

I feel, get the transit projects rolling onwards quickly, as it makes a lot of sense to have some kind of trackage to begin breaking into Mississauga towards its downtown. With the BRT (under way) and LRT (or SmartTrack), transit options improves dramatically, and more on level footing with Scarborough (with its access to SmartTrack and the controversial subway). The concentration of condos, businesses, and retail, finally now make it possible to depend less on cars in the urban Mississauga portion (the downtown area) and multiple rapid transit options can even eliminate the need for car ownership (and already now do for some new Mississauga condo residents). My opinion of the ideal eventual "Tory" scenario is ECLRT to airport & SmartTrack (an extra extension later) underground to Mississauga downtown, but I can settle for cutting the spur to make it fund a complete LRT all the way to Mississauga downtown. This brings rough parity to both Mississauga and Scarborough into GTA's emerging rapid transit fabric. On that view, the Eglinton spur makes a lot of sense, even if it temporarily (for its first ten years) doesn't justify itself fully yet. Even European cities do phases of construction through hard-to-justify routes to an eventual jackpot of a destination, and I have feeling when Tory threw darts and drew the diagram, he already knew Square One is only a future extension initiative's away. Priveleged as he may be, there are a lot of undisclosed sensible reasons why the Eglinton spur makes sense, even if it doesn't right now.

But I would certainly become opposed to the Eglinton spur, if it was declared to be the permanent terminus of SmartTrack. We could get stuck with almost a Shepperd Subway II (although it will not be quite that bad, due to the single-seat-ride capability ability all the way to Markham, which pretty much guarantees full SmartTrack trains going through the Union segment). However, the real-geometry (non-Beck-style) route map of SmartTrack makes it obvious that the SmartTrack is "aimed" towards Mississauga downtown, strongly suggestive of a politically easy future extension initiative less than the length of the Scarborough subway. The location of the current Airport Corporate Center SmartTrack endpoint is it is politically far easier for any future government to introduce an extension to Square One area, than attempting to extend Shepperd. If this extension does come to fruitition in 10-15 years from now, I guarantee you passenger numbers many, many times 800pph (even offpeak) in the Eglinton spur, once a downtown Mississauga stop is involved & the Mt Dennis interchange exists (many interchange options will exist at Dennis for everyone going in all directions from it: airport, ECLRT, mississauga, Union, GO trains, etc). People even turn down Mississauga job offers because it's just so hard to get there by transit quickly (I'm one of them, too). That would no longer be the case if there's a dramatic improvement in multiple convenient rapid transit options (not just BRT and distant GO stops). Estimates do not account for transit between downtown Mississauga and the rest of GTA. Old estimates do not account for the massive future usefulness of the Dennis interchange. That said, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a jiggle-around of the plans, extend ECLRT instead along the original SmartTrack spur, and instead ake SmartTrack eventually, over time, continue to Mt. Pleasant or Brampton instead (more in tune with GO RER plans).

Cities smaller than Mississauga (and less average population density than downtown portion of Mississauga) benefit from underground subway or RER-type systems with reasonable farebox recovery ratios far better than Shepperd. In that point of view, I am not opposed to SmartTrack (with its obvious extendability). I think Tory's keeping the Mississauga/Square One downtown SmartTrack card close to his chest, and will draw it in due time, in months or in years. If he doesn't do the switcheroo with ECLRT or a BRT upgrade -- trading a small Eglinton spur for a complete LRT between Mt Dennis & Square One -- I would not be opposed to such an idea either if it's presented and marketed well that the population actually likes it better than the SmartTrack option. More service for the same price of cancelling the Eglinton spur once a feasibility study shows how expensive it is, and displays a buffet choice of alternate attractive options. Then Tory might play off such an opportunity, as long as it doesn't delay SmartTrack. Hopefully Tory is smart enough to insure against delay from political wrangling of an Eglington-less SmartTrack (by phasing SmartTrack in a way so it can be shovels-in-ground before Eglinton is approved, even if it means Eglinton may take more than the 7-year timeline).

Even the January 16 SmartTrack status update yesterday, on page 4, confirms a feasibility study on Eglinton rapid transit options will be occuring, which fully leaves the door open on chopping the SmartTrack Eglinton spur in favour of a better Eglinton option. The report even says "optimal phasing" options will be determined. That can allow the Eglinton to be phased separately. In my opinion, it is a very sensible, and intelligent 24-page status update on SmartTrack. A bone thrown to anti-Eglinton-spur arguments, and also makes economic sense to compare all the options that can proceed quickly, and the upcoming feasibility study might be when both the "Square One future" card and the "get rid of the Eglinton spur" card gets played out.
 
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One typo off (fixed OP), but it is admonish. No worries about your beers, it is not a common word.
I thought of admonish, but it didn't appear to be used correctly. I thought you were trying to use admit ... but that didn't quite make sense either.

However, I must admonish that the demand won't be too low (in due time).
I must confess, I've never seen the word admonish used that way. Doesn't admonish have to be used with an object - and I don't see one. Who are you admonishing?
 
SmartTrack studies to cost another $1.65 million

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/01/16/smarttrack-studies-to-cost-another-165-million.html

.....

Council has already approved $750,000 in study spending. In a report released Friday, city manager Joe Pennachetti said the additional studies are necessary to assess the proposed three-stop Eglinton Ave. W. portion, which would not run on existing GO Transit tracks and could require extensive tunnelling.

- The studies, Pennachetti said, would look at the “technical feasibility, community impacts, and cost implications of a heavy rail line” on the Eglinton route, including the “feasibility of any required tunnels and bridges.” --- Pennachetti said the city would present a proposed SmartTrack financing strategy to council in the fall of this year. Negotiations with other governments are underway.

- The city and province will have to determine a fare structure. Tory said late in the day that riders would pay only the “TTC fare of the day.” --- “It is recognized,” Pennachetti wrote, “that the full benefits of (Regional Express Rail) can only be achieved if fare and service integration is implemented to provide all GTHA transit riders with a seamless regional transit system.”

.....



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. . . and after they spend that $1.65 million they'll conclude that part of Etobicoke would be better served by an extension of the Crosstown LRT, which has already been studied and planned for.
 
With all the discussions going around, I would like to point out that our existing subway system can also fall under the "heavy rail" category.

So to address the questions on if we reasonably see a "heavy rail" system operate more often the every 15min, the answer is yes. Will it operate on a shared Go Transit Line that is designed to serve Markham, however, I'm not sure.

I am of the firmest of belief by building the smarttack, we are using our tax dollars to fund the transit system of York region, and delaying addressing the need of Toronto.
 
With all the discussions going around, I would like to point out that our existing subway system can also fall under the "heavy rail" category.

So to address the questions on if we reasonably see a "heavy rail" system operate more often the every 15min, the answer is yes. Will it operate on a shared Go Transit Line that is designed to serve Markham, however, I'm not sure.

I am of the firmest of belief by building the smarttack, we are using our tax dollars to fund the transit system of York region, and delaying addressing the need of Toronto.
Bingo. Though you also ignore that we are using our tax dollars to fund the Mississauga transit system as well, replacing the need for a lot of their shuttles out of Islington/Kipling.
 
Can you point out a single European city that deferred a piece of LRT line because the demand was too low - and then went ahead and built heavy rail only the same alignment with 15-minute service instead? How is skepticism that we'll really be building heavy rail on Eglinton West silly? I think heavy rail at Renforth for 800 people per hour is silly!

I can think of one LRT in an old rail spur that is a huge fail....Edinburgh (doesn't answer your question but a warning for a LRT line). Their LRT line to the airport was a huge waste and should be a warning to Toronto (it also serves commuter parking lots). First there is not much traffic most of the day (other than about 1 hour each morning and night) and fairly numerous and cheap taxi rides. There is a direct bus (still cheaper than LRT) that goes along the road directly downtown. And each of these are closer to the terminal than the LRT.

So guess what...no one uses it. I asked an airport worker how to get to it when I was there and he looked so confused. He told me why take it.
 
[...]"big cost savings" card
[...]""eventual Square One" card
[...]Tory's keeping the Mississauga/Square One downtown SmartTrack card close to his chest,
[...]"Square One future" card
[...]"get rid of the Eglinton spur" card

I don't know what game you're playing but I can tell it isn't Uno.
 
. . . and after they spend that $1.65 million they'll conclude that part of Etobicoke would be better served by an extension of the Crosstown LRT, which has already been studied and planned for.

yep...and it actually services the corridor, not 3 measly stops.
 
Smarttrack Workplan

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/...960.pdf?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=

The more I look and analyze this project the more I think it's utterly insanity. That line is beyond redundant and Metrolinx is perfectly capable of electrifying the line and adding more stations along the way.

Why not just use that 8B$ to build the DRL instead and make preparations to extend Eglinton Crosstown further West?
 

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