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SmartTrack (Proposed)

NYC has multiple lines going places. It would be crush loads all the time if we ran trains 10 mins apart.
 
M II A II R II K said:
It would work better if SmartTrack had some of its own tunnelling and dedicated trackage and rolling stock, kind of like the CrossRail approach to adding a new line that's more than just a figment of one persons imagination.
Click to expand...

Except Smarttrack as is has morphed into something almost philosophically antithetical to the original proposal (i.e. surface subway - with subway like operations and frequencies). This is what, basically GO with a few more stops (afforded by better acceleration profiles due to electrification) run slightly more frequently than before.

And if you are going to have to tunnel like CrossRail did - you might as well build the full DRL - greater impact and solving some really acute problems, for one.

AoD
 
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It's always supposed to have been something similar to London's Overground. Relatively frequent electrified heavy rail, which works as a part of the local transit network. The fares are still a question but with the TTC adopting Presto it seems inevitable that a single fare system, if not a single regional transit system, is inevitable. Fare integration has been the plan (with Presto being the first step) for nearly a decade, and unifying the transit systems is just a matter of a provincial government with the political will to do it - I believe that it's a part of the PCs' policy resolutions.

By the way, Lakeshore East/West are both planned to be electrified (up to Burlington and Oshawa), and so is the entire Barrie Line.
 
I'm not surprised thy don't expect much higher ridership with ST. They have ST's western terminus at Mt.Pleasant just 5 minutes from the nearest subway to downtown so it's not really worth it to many. The biggest generators of ridership for the western ST will be north/east of Eglinton that have no rapid transit options........Weston, ET North, Humber. These stops will bring in tens of thousands of riders as they would finally get a fast trip to downtown at a price they can afford.

The really sad thing about all of this is that the entire Western Leg of ST is already built.............it's called UPX. All they have to do is add a few more stations, electrify the line and extend the current platform. This would cost far less and the ST trains wouldn't have to jockey for space on a route that would have RER, GO, and UPX service already. Just 3 new stations {Humber/Eg/Spad} along the entire route and incorporating ET North with TTC fares and 10 minutes all day service would send ridership soaring by offering frequent affordable transit to hundreds of thousands of more people, hundreds of new employment/educational/cultural destinations, and of course cheap transit to Pearson itself. They could certainly have a small add-on fare for Pearson which wouldn't apply for employee with their cards.

It's so easy it's painful. Toronto should just turn to ML and say we will give you every penny you spent on UPX back {about $500 million and it become part of the TTC and we will build any new stations. You can use those funds for electrification of the Kitchener line and whatever your heart desires as long as the electrification of the Kitchener line is the first thing you do with it.

Toronto would get a 25 km rapid transit line at a rock bottom price, ML wouldn't have the UPX dangling over it's neck bleeding money, the line gets electrified much faster, ML gets money they didn't expect to use on current and future projects, and hundreds of thousands of new riders get served, and the line will be used by 10 or 20 times as many people as use it now.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
The RER network east of Main Street was planned to have 9 min peak hour frequencies. North of Bloor, frequencies were 10 minutes peak hour frequencies. By no realsonsble measure are these subway frequencies; that's less than a fifth the service of our subways.
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Peak vs Peak, apples vs apples, might be more like 3x.

Peak 2min subway vs 5min RER
Offpeak 5min subway vs 15min RER.

Today, Lakeshore West has 8 trains in one hour from 4:45 thru 5:45, so already 7.5min for LSW itself.
 
mdrejhon said:
Peak vs Peak, apples vs apples, might be more like 3x.

Peak 2min subway vs 5min RER
Offpeak 5min subway vs 15min RER.

Today, Lakeshore West has 8 trains in one hour from 4:45 thru 5:45, so already 7.5min for LSW itself.
Click to expand...

The selected SmartTrack concept has peak hour frequencies of 5.5 minutes between Scaborough and Union Stations and between Union and Bloor Stations. That means that anybody with destinations or origins north of Bloor Station or north of Scarborough Station on "SmartTrack" will have to wait up to 10 minutes and 9 minutes respectively, during peak hour, for a train. Outside of peak hour, where most transit usage happens, waits will be even longer. These are good frequencies for RER and mainline commuter services, but these wait times are non consistent with subway standards in Toronto, and it is inappropriate to brand it as such.

"Subways" in Toronto have a certain connotation. People expect to travel to the station at any time, without checking a schedule, and have to wait no more than minute or two for a train. With RER/SmartTrack making people wait 10 or even 15 minutes (depending on time of day) for a train, they do not live up to the expectations of subway branding in Toronto.
 
If the TTC takes over UPX for Western ST there is no reason why they couldn't dramatically increase service levels to every 3 or 4 minutes as the UPX is primarily on it's own track and has it's own stations.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I'm not surprised thy don't expect much higher ridership with ST. They have ST's western terminus at Mt.Pleasant just 5 minutes from the nearest subway to downtown so it's not really worth it to many. The biggest generators of ridership for the western ST will be north/east of Eglinton that have no rapid transit options........Weston, ET North, Humber. These stops will bring in tens of thousands of riders as they would finally get a fast trip to downtown at a price they can afford.

The really sad thing about all of this is that the entire Western Leg of ST is already built.............it's called UPX. All they have to do is add a few more stations, electrify the line and extend the current platform. This would cost far less and the ST trains wouldn't have to jockey for space on a route that would have RER, GO, and UPX service already. Just 3 new stations {Humber/Eg/Spad} along the entire route and incorporating ET North with TTC fares and 10 minutes all day service would send ridership soaring by offering frequent affordable transit to hundreds of thousands of more people, hundreds of new employment/educational/cultural destinations, and of course cheap transit to Pearson itself. They could certainly have a small add-on fare for Pearson which wouldn't apply for employee with their cards.

It's so easy it's painful. Toronto should just turn to ML and say we will give you every penny you spent on UPX back {about $500 million and it become part of the TTC and we will build any new stations. You can use those funds for electrification of the Kitchener line and whatever your heart desires as long as the electrification of the Kitchener line is the first thing you do with it.

Toronto would get a 25 km rapid transit line at a rock bottom price, ML wouldn't have the UPX dangling over it's neck bleeding money, the line gets electrified much faster, ML gets money they didn't expect to use on current and future projects, and hundreds of thousands of new riders get served, and the line will be used by 10 or 20 times as many people as use it now.
Click to expand...
I always thought the exact same things but you put it together better than I could
 
ssiguy2 said:
I'm not surprised thy don't expect much higher ridership with ST. They have ST's western terminus at Mt.Pleasant just 5 minutes from the nearest subway to downtown so it's not really worth it to many. The biggest generators of ridership for the western ST will be north/east of Eglinton that have no rapid transit options........Weston, ET North, Humber. These stops will bring in tens of thousands of riders as they would finally get a fast trip to downtown at a price they can afford.

The really sad thing about all of this is that the entire Western Leg of ST is already built.............it's called UPX. All they have to do is add a few more stations, electrify the line and extend the current platform. This would cost far less and the ST trains wouldn't have to jockey for space on a route that would have RER, GO, and UPX service already. Just 3 new stations {Humber/Eg/Spad} along the entire route and incorporating ET North with TTC fares and 10 minutes all day service would send ridership soaring by offering frequent affordable transit to hundreds of thousands of more people, hundreds of new employment/educational/cultural destinations, and of course cheap transit to Pearson itself. They could certainly have a small add-on fare for Pearson which wouldn't apply for employee with their cards.

It's so easy it's painful. Toronto should just turn to ML and say we will give you every penny you spent on UPX back {about $500 million and it become part of the TTC and we will build any new stations. You can use those funds for electrification of the Kitchener line and whatever your heart desires as long as the electrification of the Kitchener line is the first thing you do with it.

Toronto would get a 25 km rapid transit line at a rock bottom price, ML wouldn't have the UPX dangling over it's neck bleeding money, the line gets electrified much faster, ML gets money they didn't expect to use on current and future projects, and hundreds of thousands of new riders get served, and the line will be used by 10 or 20 times as many people as use it now.
Click to expand...

That seems like a really great scenario, but right now the UPX isn't well suited to be a low fair rapid transit system because of its low capacity and frequencies. Issues that immediately come to mind:

  • The three car UPX train sets will not provide capacity needed for this to run at TTC fare. How much will new trains cost, in perhaps six to ten car train sets?
  • My understanding is that the structures at Pearson Airport have been designed to only acommodate three-car sets, and that there are rather substantial physical limitations if we were to try to fit longer sets. How much money will this cost to upgrade?
  • At 15 minute frequencies, this UPX revamp won't be a particularly attractive service. What will it take to get this to perhaps 5 minute frequencies? Remember, University Line isn't that far away, so this service will be unattractive compared to University unless it offers very frequent service.
  • More stations are needed to see the UPX revamp reach its full potential. How much will that cost? Adding a few stations to RER for SmartTrack apparently cost $700 Million, so these costs can be quite significant.
  • How do the costs/benefits compare to the Crosstown West?
  • Ridership: the ridership of the SmartTrack plan is anticipated to be less than the ridership of 40 TTC routes. Obviously that's ridership too low to warrant the proposed $700 Million investment. Would your UPX revamp proposal attract significantly more riders?
  • Cost: Between the $500 Milllion initial investment, cost of new and larger trainsets, upgrades to Pearson, costs of new stations, and acommodating enhanced frequencies, this can quickly turn into a multi-billion dollar project.
 
Let's say it came to a billion dollars........$500 million {and with the amount of money the UPX is bleeding I'm sure ML would take a lower price, $100 million per station as remember these are much cheaper outdoor stations, $50 million to expand current stations, free electrification, and the 100 meter Metro trains. They should definitely get catenary subway/metro cars as they are easier for un/boarding like Melbourne's. Catenary subways are often used with the entire Delhi, Barcelona, Hong Kong trains only being catenary and most of the Tokyo and Sao Paulo systems. 100 meter stations with high frequency would be more than enough capacity for any foreseeable future.

That's max $1 billion for a 25km line plus trains and that assumes they couldn't take it off ML's hand for less that $500 million.
That means about max $1.1 billion for a 25km subway. Sounds like a hell of a bargain to me especially when you consider Toronto want to built a 1 station 6km line for $3 billion or the $300 per km the Spadina line is coming in at. All this works out to max $60 million per km...................those are 1990 prices.

There are many other added bonuses that Toronto could employ. First ML would have some extra DMU it could use for new service like the Dupont/Peterborough line and ML gets money to electrify the Kitchener corridor years ahead of schedule which helps them introduce RER along the route years ahead of schedule because electrification is surprisingly cheap and fast to implement. Those funds could also be used to buy the Milton line.

Also there is another benefit of using existing transportation infrastructure............it's not all or nothing. Stations can be phased in as needed so you don't have to wait for the entire line to be built before opening any of it. The trains would be easy to get as catenary subways are very much subway 101 unlike the streetcars in Toronto that needed special track gauge.

Toronto could have a brand new 25 km subway line within easily 2 years as there is precious little to do.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Toronto could have a brand new 25 km subway line within easily 2 years as there is precious little to do.
Click to expand...

Well, more than a *little* to do.... but the idea of rolling UPX into ST is a good one. Certainly, if a decision were reached about station locations for Etobicoke, the current Etobicoke North station could be replaced within two years. And the Mount Dennis station does not need to wait for Crosstown to be completed - the Weston Sub side could be built and opened sooner. And Liberty Village also.

I wonder if a non-powered trailer car could be found to run between two UPX cars - that would stretch the number of trainsets. Frankly, any old second hand single level coach could likely suffice, just make it compatible with the right MU cables and perhaps its own HEP generator. Or, just buy a few older locomotives and run push-pull consists with the EMU's running in neutral.... might be cheaper than maintaining those balky power plants.

If one did the above, one would have a quick-and-dirty stopping service from the Airport to downtown. Electrification and addition of the fourth track (to enable the Regional GO and VIA improvements) ought to be expedited, but GO would no longer need to make all stops east of Malton and no station platforms need to be added for the north/east tracks - that saves time and money. It would take no time to connect the interlockings at Humberview and Nickle with the fourth track, so GO would have reasonable two-direction capability for service to Malton and beyond.

Current signalling is likely good for 7.5 min headways - the block spacing is very short by GO standards.

- Paul
 
As soon as the line s electrified, the service could essentially start and electrification is a very simple procedure and isn't a whole lot more complicated or time consuming as putting up regular electrical poles on any given street.

They could use the current UPX trains till the subway cars arrive and again just phase in the stations over the next couple of years so for now they could just offer service o the existing stations. Another added bonus is that these would be the exact same new articulated trains the TTC uses on the Yonge line so they would be as easily identified as the TTC trains re now so people wouldn't have to think about whether they are on a GO, RER, or TTC subway train.

Also even with frequency of 7 minutes, that is still pretty decent capacity to start with. The current UPX stations are about 80 meters which is 4 articulated subway cars. Again, the stations don't have to be expanded to have the system up and running as that too can be phased in. 4 car Metro trains running every 7 minutes is about 6,000 pphpd. This is what the Canada Line is currently running at and manages 130,000 passengers a day. the Canada Line at Waterfront runs departs every 3 minutes on only one track like the UPX at Union so Toronto should at least be able to get to every 4 minutes with ATC and with 100 meter stations {5 cars} the line is at 15,000 PPHPD.
 
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