SmartTrack (Proposed)

[44 North]

So I was by the No Frills at Carlaw/Gerrard a couple hours ago and noticed an active drilling rig right there in the parking lot. Anyone know if this is part of soil/ground testing for RER, GO, or something transit-related?

 

[jcam]

So I was by the No Frills at Carlaw/Gerrard a couple hours ago and noticed an active drilling rig right there in the parking lot. Anyone know if this is part of soil/ground testing for RER, GO, or something transit-related?

I was at Keesmaat's speech the other morning at Board of Trade, and she noted that they'll be presenting the final alignment and station locations for the DRL in June, and that soil testing is already underway.

I'm guessing that means there'll be a DRL station at Gerard Square.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A station is planned at Gerrard Squre

 

[44 North]

I was at Keesmaat's speech the other morning at Board of Trade, and she noted that they'll be presenting the final alignment and station locations for the DRL in June, and that soil testing is already underway.

I'm guessing that means there'll be a DRL station at Gerard Square.

Wicked. That is, if this is in fact DRL-related ground work. It was active when I got there, but it looked like the crew was right at the end of their shift (and seemingly didn't want to bothered by the inquisitive John Q public). I've worked around drills before and to me it appeared they were going pretty deep, and I did overhear one of the drillers mention something about 'reaching 50ft today'.

Keep in mind this isn't Gerrard Square proper, but literally in the parking lot directly in front of the entrance to No Frills (on Carlaw just north of Gerrard).

 

[salsa]

There was a Jane's Walk at Gerrard Square last weekend that talked a lot about the urban design of the mall and its redevelopment potential. Steve Munro was there as a guest speaker to talk about transit, and said that while there will probably be a DRL station at Gerrard Square, he does not think Metrolinx will build a GO station there that would interchange with the subway. Primarily because it would be too close to the planned station at Unilever, because Gerrard Square is not a major destination except for local residents, and because transfer volumes between GO and TTC at that location would be low.

 

[Forgotten]

There was a Jane's Walk at Gerrard Square last weekend that talked a lot about the urban design of the mall and its redevelopment potential. Steve Munro was there as a guest speaker to talk about transit, and said that while there will probably be a DRL station at Gerrard Square, he does not think Metrolinx will build a GO station there that would interchange with the subway. Primarily because it would be too close to the planned station at Unilever, because Gerrard Square is not a major destination except for local residents, and because transfer volumes between GO and TTC at that location would be low.

If true that's fantastic news. Planners have said they don't want to build a RL station at Unilever because it's an awkward and costly to build transfer. This combined with Keesmaat's RL alignment and Metrolinx's plan to build a station at Dufferin and King and not at Queen, it might be possible there won't be any GO/RL interchanges at all. Tory and Keesmaat: Putting the SMART in SmartTrack. Those BFF's are getting exposed more and more with each passing day.

 

[robmausser]

"it might be possible there won't be any GO/RL interchanges at all"

This city is planned by morons. The entire purpose of the RL is to offer relief. Not just on Bloor/Yonge but on Union.

Without any interchanges both the RL and GO RER will increase foot traffic to Union.

What a disaster.

 

[mdrejhon]

Actually, I think Gerrard Square would end up having both a DRL and GO RER interchange anyway.
Even if DRL is built first.

Let's remember that "GO Station" of the future EMU era might actually be a small 8-coach platform, rather than a full fledged GO station with parking structure. In Metrolinx's GO business case, various options are being evaluated for this route, that included a 4-coach joinable EMU that built up to 8 and 12 coach via automatic joiners.

More interchange stations are needed GTHA-wide, so it would be shortsighted to skip roughin-in planning of a RER stop at Gerrard square, especially if that general area is redeveloped over the next 20-50 years.

Some lopsided station spacing may occur in this situation, but station spacing is naturally denser inside the downtown area.

Especially when certain GO tracks achieve 3-to-5-minute headways over the next 20-years in a future CBTC-signalling-controlled era. $800M of $13.5bn is the same type of signal system TTC is doing to increase Yonge capacity. Multilayered stopping plans can be provided (e.g. 1 out of 4 trains stop at Gerrard Square), in a similar vein to how Paris RER Line B handles minor stations. That way, many trains don't get slowed down by minor stops.

 

[rbt]

"it might be possible there won't be any GO/RL interchanges at all"

This city is planned by morons. The entire purpose of the RL is to offer relief. Not just on Bloor/Yonge but on Union.

Union needs a $2B tunnel for a pair of through RER services; 2 minute rush-hour frequencies in the tunnel. Nothing fancier than that.

That said, interchanges seem an important part of encouraging office development to move North of the financial district now that South is starting to fill up.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Union needs a $2B tunnel for a pair of through RER services; 2 minute rush-hour frequencies in the tunnel. Nothing fancier than that.

That said, interchanges seem an important part of encouraging office development to move North of the financial district now that South is starting to fill up.

I'm pretty sure the development will move south-east of the Financial District, before going north, with the Portlands, Unilever and all.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From this link:

The recommended SmartTrack concept will be reported to the City's Executive Committee and Metrolinx Board of Directors in June, 2016.

Public Information Centres
The City of Toronto, TTC, Waterfront Toronto together with Metrolinx are working to bring more transit to communities across the city with connections throughout the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. During May and June, we have organized several meetings for you to learn more about integrated transit planning and provide your feedback on key projects and studies underway.

The following seven sessions will focus on specific projects as noted:

Wednesday, May 25

WATERFRONT
TRANSIT RESET

Harbourfront Centre
235 Queens Quay West
6:00 pm – 8:30 pm

Presentation at 6:30 pm

Thursday, May 26

WATERFRONT TRANSIT
RESET (WEST)


John English Junior Middle School
95 Mimico Avenue
6:00 pm – 8:30 pm

Presentation at 6:30 pm

Tuesday, May 31

SCARBOROUGHTRANSIT PLANNING


Scarborough Civic Centre
150 Borough Drive
6:30 pm – 8:30 pm

Presentation at 7:00 pm

Wednesday, June 1

SMARTTRACK

Metro Toronto Convention Centre
South Building, Room 701
222 Bremner Boulevard
6:30 pm – 8:30 pm

Presentation at 7:00 pm

Thursday, June 2

RELIEF LINE

Riverdale Collegiate
1094 Gerrard St East
6:30 pm – 8:30 pm

Presentation at 7:00 pm

Saturday, June 4

SMARTTRACK (WEST)

York Humber High School
100 Emmett Avenue
9:30 am – 11:30 am

Presentation at 10:00 am


Tuesday, June 21

TRANSIT NETWORK PLANNING
City Hall
Members’ Lounge
100 Queen Street West
3:30 pm – 6:30 pm
Presentation at 5:00 pm

The same information will be available at each meeting and online, so you can choose the location and format convenient for you.

View Meeting Notice​

 

[Euphoria]

I've been thinking about the reasons for having Smart Track exist as a separate entity from GO RER. There are two important reasons. First, the route itself is new and within Toronto, though carved out of existing routes. Second, the fee structure. I think most of us have the assumption, rightly, that unlike GO, Smart Track won't have a distance-based fee structure. Instead, you'll pay one price whether you take ST one stop or 10. In this regard it's like the TTC. Where it gets sticky is in transfers with TTC. Most commentators agree that Smart Track should cost more to ride than the TTC, since it is an express service. My question is, shouldn't there be a discount for an ST fare for someone transferring from TTC? If so, shouldn't this also work in reverse for a rider transferring from ST to the TTC? The problem is that if such a discount existed without a similar discount in transfers between TTC and GO, we end up disadvantaging the GO system.

I think the resolution is to give ST tickets, GO tickets, and TTC tickets an equal monetary transfer value that expires within a time frame, not unlike TTC transfers. To illustrate, I'll use the set amount of $2.25. Wherever I get off an ST station to transfer onto TTC, my ST ticket will pay $2.25 towards the cost of my TTC ticket, as long as I use it within a certain time frame. So if I paid $4.00 for an ST ticket, when I transfer onto the TTC I'll only pay $1.00, as my ST ticket reduced my TTC fare by $2.25 down from $3.25. For the sake of ease, this process should work in reverse: My TTC ticket will reduce my $4.00 ST fare by $2.25 down to $1.75, such that if I ride TTC then ST, I'll pay $5.00. If I ride ST then TTC, I'll pay $5.00. What's more, if I use either of these services transferring to or from GO, the same transfer discount applies. For example, if I take a one way GO Train trip from Port Credit to Union at a cost of $6.75, my ticket will give me a $2.25 discount on the TTC. The TTC ticket also gives me a $2.25 discount on the GO system. This way, we retain the distance-based fare of GO and the single fare structures of TTC and Smart Track. The distance-based system has its merits for larger regional trips. The single fare system is better for inner city travel. This approach integrates both. A Presto card would obviously simplify these transfers further and allow for bulk discounts. If one were to transfer between GO and Smart Track, the same discounted amount would apply, whether by GO train or bus.

I think this simplified approach is more user friendly than having an assortment of transfer policies and fees across the GTA. It would be interesting to see if other cities and towns in the region would support this kind of discount in the tranfers between GO and local transit systems. That's one advantage for sure of having a regional authority like Metrolinx.

 

[Palma]

I've been thinking about the reasons for having Smart Track exist as a separate entity from GO RER. There are two important reasons. First, the route itself is new and within Toronto, though carved out of existing routes. Second, the fee structure. I think most of us have the assumption, rightly, that unlike GO, Smart Track won't have a distance-based fee structure. Instead, you'll pay one price whether you take ST one stop or 10. In this regard it's like the TTC. Where it gets sticky is in transfers with TTC. Most commentators agree that Smart Track should cost more to ride than the TTC, since it is an express service. .

Why? Having 10 stops makes it an express service that justifies premium pricing? Sheppard subway has 4-5 stops. Why not make a premium service. Wilson to Museum is 10 stops. Should that be a premium service for those going 10 stops? Makes no sense. Expecially when one can ride from Warden all the way to Kipling on a flat fare

 

[Euphoria]

Because the distances traveled between stops on ST are much greater and so are the speeds. If you don't charge some kind of premium for ST, you'll kill the TTC. If I live near Pape Station and work at Bay and King, I can either take the slower route with more stops by subway or get there in a few stops on ST. Of course ST should cost a bit more to ride. That doesn't mean the fares have to be distance-based. The main purpose of providing a discount for transfers between systems is so that the commuter who, for example, lives near an ST stop but works near a subway stop, can use both systems without having to pay two full transit fares. This has always been a problem for commuters who have to take GO to reach the TTC. They pay an enormous fee for distance-based GO then pay a full TTC fare. A GO rider making a one-way trip from Port Credit to Yonge and Bloor has to pay a $6.75 GO fare plus a $3.25 TTC fare, $10.00 for a one-way trip. The Scarborough resident who lives roughly the same distance from Yonge and Bloor can make the entire trip on the TTC for $3.25.

No doubt some on here will say, sucks to be you living in Mississauga, but it isn't equitable if we're trying to address transit in a fair way across the region. Introducing a fee and transfer structure like the one I've proposed retains the notion of pay-one-price transit in Toronto, but it respects the challenges of commuters who must travel across multiple systems, whether they live in Toronto or elsewhere in the GTA. Basically the zone or distance-based system only kicks in when you cross into other cities or use GO, but I'm proposing that there's at least a discount when switching systems. Not fair, for example, that someone living just east of Scarborough, in West Pickering, should pay full fare on two transit systems just to go to Kennedy Station when the person living at Port Union and Lawrence in Scarborough can travel to Kipling Station for one fare.

There needs to be a discount for multiple system users. Mississauga and Brampton's systems accept transfers between systems without requiring additional fares. Metrolinx should try to at least standardize discounts across the GTA. Something like this exists transferring between GO and local transit outside Toronto using a Presto card, but it stops at the Toronto border. I'm sure there are Torontonians who would appreciate a discount on TTC when they transfer from GO.

 

[ssiguy2]

Why should scarce TTC funds be spent o0n a two-tiered system? If it's getting public money then it should be available to the entire public regardless of socio/economic standing. Canadians don't tolerate two-tiered public healthcare or public education so why should they have to tolerate it for public transit?