Shooting on the subway @ Osgoode station

[Admiral Beez]

I think it is not legitimate to categorize city gangs by race, but rather by city locale. I work and play soccer near many blacks, latinos, and I know for a fact that many of these individuals are good, hard-working people. To generalize them in with a crime-ridden sub-culture is wrong.

I'm not generalizing a group, but am instead simply making an observation of the obvious. I'm not intending to say that young, male, Caribbean-origin blacks are all violent street criminals. Instead, I am saying that most of our violent street criminals appear to to young, male, Caribbean-origin blacks. We can ignore this if it's not PC, but the facts are not going to change.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Black gang crime on the other hand is being waged in the public spaces. No question. The question is what to do about it?

There are only two solutions to the problem of gangsters and guns. Elminate the gun, or eliminate the gangsta.

Gun control is failing, since most come illegally from the USA. This could be fixed if every gun made in the USA had an imbedded RFID tag that could not be easily removed without destroying the gun's function, which could then be detected at the border. Alternatively, each gun made in the USA could have a fingerprint scanner on the trigger. Not matter how likely or fanciful these solution may appear, until the USA gets control over its guns, gun control in Canada will fail.

So, we're left with eliminating the gangsta through either heavy-handed justice (longer sentences, deportations, cut off of public housing rights, forced relocation, etc.) or feel good community out-reach and youth at risk aversion programs, or a combination thereof.

 

[Dilla]

So, we're left with eliminating the gangsta through either heavy-handed justice (longer sentences, deportations, cut off of public housing rights, forced relocation, etc.)

If that alone worked there wouldn't be 30 times the amount of "ganstas" in the US. Which there are.

I'm all for tougher sentences for some crimes (like this one), but i really don't see it as a deterrent; just punishment, which is important too.

If you're the type of hothead who's going to pull out and start spraying bullets around at 11am in Osgoode station, you're obviously not too worried about getting caught, no matter the sentence.

or feel good community out-reach and youth at risk aversion programs, or a combination thereof.

I think a combination, with an emphasis on the feel good stuff is the best bet.

 

[Whoaccio]

We should start reforming the social security system, given that poor welfare is tied up in crime. An easy one I could think of would be eliminating public schools based on geographic areas. For the most part, these just serve to concentrate poverty and wealth based on geography. If we swtiched to a voucher based system, low income student families could choose the schools which were safer and a more balanced racial composition.

A similar approach could be had with social housing. Large scale public housing projects are a terrible idea. If we just provided low income residents with an equivalent rent subsidy, they wouldn't be forced to concentrate in low income neighborhoods quite as much.

 

[confusion]

I'm not a socialist, but the solution will come from giving younger youth better opportunities primarily through education and after school programs. If said youth is involved in constructive activities with their peers, they are unlikely to pursue negative activities as their schedule is already booked. If you place someone in a life where they don't have as many opportunities to make bad decisions, then it is obvious the percentage of people making those bad decisions will decrease.

I fear much of what Toronto is going through now is a remnant of the Conservative Mike Harris that ripped through our social programs and educational programs. I was a student at the time and I remember school funding of sports revoked. Now as an adult I look back at that and I am even more disgusted than I was at the time.

 

[Tewder]

Musters:

Of course there's always the stance that being born in Canada or having the opportunity to move and settle here is essentially the international equivalence of 'winning the lottery', and most people around the world, developed or undeveloped, would look at people here who complain or who 'opt out' with disgust! Putting aside partisan propaganda and political spin for the moment lets not lose site that our priviledged outrage/indignation over any perceived Harris legacy is still grossly inconsequential, not to mention pathetic, compared to the real hardship and lack of hope or opportunity that people in most countries have to endure.

 

[digi]

If you place someone in a life ...

We should find those people who "place these people in these lives", and do something about it!!!

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

The trouble with the argument that it is lack of afterschool activites or other opportunities is that is the easy argument and not necessarily true. For every gang member that comes out of a poor background there are many more who go on to do quite well, or at least stay out of trouble and pursue normal lives. In my line of work, I see lots of people who subsist on very little income, but who work 10-12 hours a day to better themselves, so how is it that these people cannot? How is it that they decide to pursue a violent lifestyle rather than a productive one? To answer my own question, I suspect the answer lies in social norms, or rather, if you associate being a gang member as a positive you will see nothing wrong in choosing that life. How to address that, I can't say.

 

[AKS]

I'm not a socialist, but the solution will come from giving younger youth better opportunities primarily through education and after school programs. If said youth is involved in constructive activities with their peers, they are unlikely to pursue negative activities as their schedule is already booked. If you place someone in a life where they don't have as many opportunities to make bad decisions, then it is obvious the percentage of people making those bad decisions will decrease.

I fear much of what Toronto is going through now is a remnant of the Conservative Mike Harris that ripped through our social programs and educational programs. I was a student at the time and I remember school funding of sports revoked. Now as an adult I look back at that and I am even more disgusted than I was at the time.

I don't know if increasing schools and promoting better education is an issue. Some youths just don't like school. They don't like to study. Even if you place them in school, if their heart is not in it, they'll skip class to do other things. The rebellious ones also don't want to listen to you. They'll do what they want, not what you tell them is right or wrong. It's like schools banning smoking in the building. When I was in high school, I still caught students smoking there. Some were a bit better. They only skipped class and smoked outside the building by the door. I wasn't in the low level classes so I'm not sure but I think many probably skip classes.

I wonder if Canada deports gangs if they catch them. Not sure if that would scare them to behave better though. I think US deports certain criminals with records though? I've heard from one of my friends her bf was banned from entering US.

 

[unimaginative2]

If a non-Canadian citizen is convicted of a serious crime, they will usually be deported.

 

[Mustapha]

We should start reforming the social security system, given that poor welfare is tied up in crime. An easy one I could think of would be eliminating public schools based on geographic areas. For the most part, these just serve to concentrate poverty and wealth based on geography. If we swtiched to a voucher based system, low income student families could choose the schools which were safer and a more balanced racial composition.

A similar approach could be had with social housing. Large scale public housing projects are a terrible idea. If we just provided low income residents with an equivalent rent subsidy, they wouldn't be forced to concentrate in low income neighborhoods quite as much.

'choosing schools' -I personally know of cases where this was done. Scarborough kids attending north Toronto type schools. Individual family initiative.

'housing' - I live across from a home owned by the city. Families cycle in and out; as the youngest reaches age 18 the family must move. In the 2 cycles I have seen the kids have gone on to post sec ed.

 

[Tewder]

I don't know if increasing schools and promoting better education is an issue. Some youths just don't like school.

Yes, and you can't help but wonder to what degree these unmotivated individuals might be making life hell for those who truly do want to better themselves.

I think we'd all agree that help is there for those genuinely need and want it. The problem(s) that get in the way tend to revolve around drugs, broken families/lack of discipline and guidance, and simple lack of motivation where those who feel disenfranchised, for whatever perceived reasons, are far too willing and find it far too easy to drift into bad behaviour.

 

[jks]

I hope the TTC doesn't start another program to 'protect' its employees. I mean, this rarely happens, and instead of wasting money on it, they could greatly improve service. I'm mainly talking about the driver's shields that are to be installed on all surface vehicles this year. I dont even get how that would work. How would one get a transfer, if the driver is glassed in, they have to take it themselves, and that comes with its own problems. Look at the Greyhound shooting, i mean thaat incident was far worse, and they still decided not to introduce new safety measures. I really do understand the suffering of the families, and the victims, but sometimes the safety measures are really too much.

 

[Admiral Beez]

ILook at the Greyhound shooting, i mean thaat incident was far worse, and they still decided not to introduce new safety measures.

Well, perhaps they should. The odds of being murdered or attacked on a Greyhound bus are not as remote as one might think.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/01/bus.ax.ap/
A transient was booked on suspicion of murder Tuesday for allegedly slashing the throat of a Greyhound bus driver with a pair of scissors, causing a crash that killed two passengers.

http://www.injuryhelpline.com/index....nd+bus&id=3856
A Dallas-bound Greyhound bus traveling through eastern Arkansas on Interstate 40 careened into marshy woods off of the interstate when an allegedly delusional passenger seized control of the steering wheel from the driver.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1554.cfm
Six people were killed and dozens of others injured after a passenger on a Greyhound bus stabbed the bus driver, causing the bus to wreck and flip on Interstate 24

http://www.justachat.com/forum/archi...php/t-356.html
An Atlanta man has been charged with stabbing three people in a fight over the use of a toilet on a Greyhound bus and was being held without bail Monday, police said.

 

[lordmandeep]

No matter how poor you are and desperate you are, there is no reason to shoot people on a subway. I can see how some commit petty crimes to make some desperate cash, but really stop showing compassion to those who clearly do not deserve it.

A lot of immigrant groups are poor and a lot of them have criminality in them but they all are not going into our subways and acting like cowboys with colts...


All groups commit crimes but it is only a select group that commits these rather heinous public crimes.
Its clearly a problem with a few groups of people that clearly are backwards and behind... Its something in the culture that somehow tells these men it is okay to do such a thing or it just plain stupidity.

Someone tell these youths. If you want to make easy cash there are much better ways to do so then risking your lives over drugs.

You know how much money there is in pirate DVD's???
Clean business easy cash and no violence.


The public/police is willing to go after these guys and throw these guys in jail. Its the damn judges that fall for those sobby stories told by some idealistic lawyer defending these pricks.
However the Jane Creba case clearly shows people have had enough.
The people do not care you did not do it because of some stupid technicalities.
You where there when she was killed and involved in that fight, thus its your fault she is dead.