Sheppard Stubway

[DENTROBATE54]

As far as I know, the TTC DID prioritize, Sheppard was the busiest bus from what I have heard on these boards. It makes sense that the busiest bus would get the subway. Downtown is already served by streetcars. And the TTC doesn't seem interested in building subways downtown. Wherever you build a subway, it's going to be controversial. Nobody in the 416 wants a subway to VCC. Yet we're getting it. Everyone said you needed to build a DRL before expandding the Yonge line. Yet they're expanding the Yonge line. It's just politics that decides this, not real need.

*snort* Like politicians give a fig where commuters actually demand subways . What I find really off-putting about the Sheppard subway was that in its 'justification' for subway status, the actual line would only run a maximum to the Stoufville on Sheppard Ave. Which neglects the nearly two-thirds of route 85 running east to Rouge Hill. If Yonge to Kennedy alone were taken into consideration, the ridership would fall to way below 20,000.

Finch East actually had higher ppd than pre-Sheppard Line Sheppard East, numbering close to 39,000. This is not to even mention the limitless potential of the Finch Hydro corridor just sitting there idle one-quarter km north of the corridor.

Downtown is too obvious. If I never saw a suburban subway again but downtown received a windfall of new stations (like thirty), I'd have zero problemo using the GO for all my long-distance needs. VCC, eh, at least it'll interface with VIVA, which hopefully extends into Brampton down the pike. I almost wish Toronto had more than transit operator. They always say increased competition lowers prices and improves quality of goods, so you never know!

 

[unimaginative2]

The overwhelming majority of Sheppard ridership is west of Kennedy.

 

[Dan416]

I'm not familiar with the Finch Hydro Corridor, but I'd be leary of putting any form of rapid transit in a hydro corridor. I'm not a fan of the alignment of the Mississauga BRT for similar reasons.

 

[adma]

Leary? You mean, you'd be strung out on LSD?

 

[RedRocket191]

I'm not familiar with the Finch Hydro Corridor, but I'd be leary of putting any form of rapid transit in a hydro corridor. I'm not a fan of the alignment of the Mississauga BRT for similar reasons.

Hydro corridors and highway corridors are excellent for bus-only roads to move people long distances very quickly, but don't expect walk-on ridership.

If we're measuring success as "can we make a trip from Clarkson, Streetsville or Meadowvale to Square One faster?" then the transitway will be a huge success. If we're measuring success as "can we build a line which encourages walk-in ridership and intensification?" then I wouldn't expect much.

To compare this to Ottawa, almost every peak hour only and express bus in Ottawa uses the Transitway at some point, making trips downtown much faster. However, I didn't see too many people walking to the stations outside of downtown.

 

[Dan416]

Hydro corridors and highway corridors are excellent for bus-only roads to move people long distances very quickly, but don't expect walk-on ridership.

If we're measuring success as "can we make a trip from Clarkson, Streetsville or Meadowvale to Square One faster?" then the transitway will be a huge success. If we're measuring success as "can we build a line which encourages walk-in ridership and intensification?" then I wouldn't expect much.

To compare this to Ottawa, almost every peak hour only and express bus in Ottawa uses the Transitway at some point, making trips downtown much faster. However, I didn't see too many people walking to the stations outside of downtown.

I don't think the Mississauga BRT will help anyone from Clarkson, Streetsville or Meadowvale get to Square One significantly faster. The MBRT doesn't travel anywhere near any of those points. Unless you're just using that as a hypothetical example?

 

[RedRocket191]

Take Meadowvale as an example:

An express bus route which uses Erin Mills and the Transitway to get to Square One will probably be faster than that same bus running in mixed traffic. That is generally how Mississauga plans to operate the transitway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Finch hydro corridor would be poor for local service but fantastic for long-distance travel, with stops every 3-4km or so. The best thing is that York, Seneca, North York Centre, Jane & Finch, etc., are all located right at the corridor, which would actually result in amazingly useful stop locations within walking distance of tens of thousands of people.

and we'll just keep kicking 'em in the bum until they get it, these half-wit clods? is that the most attractive rallying point of the better-transit-for-toronto game plan?

They are half-wit clods complaining about a half-built line. You're missing the point: I'm talking about the people who oppose finishing Sheppard but do so for entirely silly or petty reasons. Lots of people do not want to extend Sheppard simply to spite those who supported it...some of this is Mel's baggage/legacy.

Everyone wants a subway, but not everywhere deserves one. With prioritizing by actual demand instead of imagined ones, there'd be a second east-west line in downtown Toronto and the Eglinton Line to Pearson by now.

Dentrobate, demand on Eglinton is not greater than demand on other routes, like Finch. Sheppard was one of the busiest bus corridors in the city - it still is. Oh, and you're not someone who has much credibility when it comes to being "informed"...

Finch East has slightly higher ridership than Sheppard East, but Finch East has no traffic problems, while Sheppard East is often gridlocked. Sheppard is also vastly superior in terms of redevelopment opportunities. Finch East ridership is sharply reduced east of Warden and plummets to a few thousand east of McCowan.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

They are half-wit clods complaining about a half-built line. You're missing the point: I'm talking about the people who oppose finishing Sheppard but do so for entirely silly or petty reasons. Lots of people do not want to extend Sheppard simply to spite those who supported it...some of this is Mel's baggage/legacy.

I think it goes beyond 'spite'. You have to realize that 80% of Torontonians don't 'naturally' need to access or travel through that part of the world. So for a vast majority of non-transit fanatics it'll look like a waste of funds, especially when BRT/LRT is overlooked as a viable alternative. Furthermore areas with higher than 40-50,000 ppd (i.e. the downtown core) will wonder where's our subways to replace 10 min headways on outmoded streetcars or limited service inner-city bus routes (6 Bay, 65 Parliament). It'd appear the goals of these 'half-wits' is the same as your's, to improve transit options for a majority of commuters and communities.

Dentrobate, demand on Eglinton is not greater than demand on other routes, like Finch. Sheppard was one of the busiest bus corridors in the city - it still is. Oh, and you're not someone who has much credibility when it comes to being "informed"...

Lay off okay. Finch East did in fact have a higher ridership in contrast to pre-subway route 85. If you crunch the numbers for routes 32, 34, 86, 100 and 116 you wind up with a corridor catchment carrying a minimum of 200,000 passengers per day. There's zero logical reasons not to even consider the Eglinton subway, especially considering the benefits it'd grant to Pearson and Mississauga via BRT. Those two passenger boosts could add an extra 50,000 to daily ridership, figures that would exceed projections for VCC/SCC extensions handedly.

Finch East has slightly higher ridership than Sheppard East, but Finch East has no traffic problems, while Sheppard East is often gridlocked. Sheppard is also vastly superior in terms of redevelopment opportunities. Finch East ridership is sharply reduced east of Warden and plummets to a few thousand east of McCowan.

Well, if we do get a subway extension over a LRT line on Sheppard East, maybe the technology can shift one concession up, bringing seamless cross-city access to Humber College, Albion Mall, Jane&Finch, York U, Seneca, Bridlewood, Woodside, Morningside Hts and the Zoo.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It'd appear the goals of these 'half-wits' is the same as your's, to improve transit options for a majority of commuters and communities.

No, they don't have the same goal. They think every dollar spent somewhere is a dollar stolen from somewhere else, an incredibly feudal and "half-wit" position given the billions of dollars contained in MoveOntario, more than enough to pay for any project. This is because only half of the Sheppard line was built back in the 90s, not the multiple lines that were planned, causing others to feel transit lines were stolen from them and causing people to blame the Sheppard line for the TTC's financial woes (when, really, funding has been cut and every route loses money). They oppose finishing Sheppard because it's a "subway to nowhere," because "it never should have been built," etc., not on the grounds of something factual like ridership numbers...they don't care about ridership numbers.

This thread is a perfect example of what I'm talking about...every discussion about extending Sheppard turns into a discussion about something else, like building a subway on Eglinton. It's not one or the other!

edit - and only 5 years of condo construction has generated more than enough riders to make up the small gap between Finch East and Sheppard East pre-subway ridership levels.

 

[unimaginative2]

You have to realize that 80% of Torontonians don't 'naturally' need to access or travel through that part of the world. So for a vast majority of non-transit fanatics it'll look like a waste of funds, especially when BRT/LRT is overlooked as a viable alternative.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of non-transit fanatics are strongly supportive of subways. In fact, the only people I've ever heard opposing subways, publicly or anecdotally, are Mike Harris Conservatives and transit "advocates".

 

[RedRocket191]

Subways are expensive, but they are a politically safe bet. Light rail works too, but light rail supporters are at a disadvantage because there's nothing in Canada to point to as an example of a true light rail line. I could point out places like Zagreb or Kassel, but the general public isn't going to easily identify with those cities.

 

[unimaginative2]

Edmonton and Calgary have successfully implemented light rail. If we were getting something like Calgary's systems, I'd have a lot fewer hesitations about Transit City as a whole.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Actually, the overwhelming majority of non-transit fanatics are strongly supportive of subways. In fact, the only people I've ever heard opposing subways, publicly or anecdotally, are Mike Harris Conservatives and transit "advocates".

Exactly. Non-transit fanatics would never support something like BRT on Sheppard. Surface transit along Sheppard East is pretty much not viable between Yonge and Warden.

 

[RedRocket191]

The only difference over Calgary is that the trains will operate in the median with signal priority across their entire run. It will be able to carry more people than the bus could, it will be more reliable than the bus is and it will be faster than the bus is, but not by leaps and bounds.

I'll admit, the city has not done a very good job of differentiating between what we have on Queen and what transit city will bring us. The media continues to call it a streetcar plan, and streetcars evoke a particular image. Its up to the city to counter this.