Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

An elevated subway would work, but how do we get it above ground? How will it cross the 404 and 401 to get above ground.

 

[ehlow]

The screeching wheels on the existing subway seems to have been fixed for the last year or so. I credit Byford with that because he mentioned during an interview that he would fix it and he did.

Having said that, if it's badly maintained and they cut corners, the screeching could return.

 

[gweed123]

An elevated subway would work, but how do we get it above ground? How will it cross the 404 and 401 to get above ground.

What I would do is this: have the line ascend to just below ground level just west of Consumers, with Consumers station being just barely underground (like Dundas Station depth), with the line ascending to an elevated platform just east of Victoria Park. That way, it's underground when crossing the 404.

 

[Standard]

If the elevated subway is proposed the neighbourhoods along the line will be up in arms against it. Most people there don't want to start hearing trains rumbling in their backyards.

The anti LRT group in that neighbourhood wasn't just against LRT, they were against subways too. They didn't want any new development in their neighbourhood that would be caused due to improved transit.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe the ICTS tracks from the RT can be recycled to be used in a Sheppard Subway replacement.

 

[BurlOak]

It may not be as pronounced with ICTS as it is with LRT, but those "setup costs" you speak of as a major barrier decrease with every KM that the line is extended as ICTS or LRT vs if it was built as a subway. Even assuming $150M/km for ICTS extensions and $75 M/km for at-grade LRT extensions, you're still $200M/km and $275M/km less than if you were building those extensions as a subway (@ $350M/km).

The most recent number for conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT was $600 million, which we can reasonably assume would be about $750 million today (I believe the number was from 2010 or somewhere around there). That means that an ICTS conversion + extension of 3.75km or more is cost-neutral with the subway extension option, and an at-grade LRT conversion + extension of 2.75km or more is cost-neutral. Anything longer than that, and the conversion option is actually more cost efficient than the subway option.

Obviously you can vary the numbers a little bit to end up with a different "break even" length, but the basic principle is the same. For every KM you extend as LRT or ICTS, the more cost efficient the conversion + extension option becomes.

It sounds like you are assuming the cost to convert Sheppard to LRT is the same as the cost to convert to ICTS (SkyTrain). Maybe I am wrong, but I thought that LRT would not fit at all cross-overs and other areas where box structures were built using cut-and-cover (not sure if this is all stations). Maybe the entire tunnel has to be reconstructed in these areas to accommodate LRT. SkyTrain is a much smaller vehicle with none of the height issues, so no tunnel modification is required. Plus, I am quite sure the LRT conversion cost was for low floor LRT, which would not apply for SkyTrain.

I do not have a clue how to estimate the cost to convert to SkyTrain, but I would guess that it is significantly less than conversion to LRT.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or they could extend it as an elevated subway with stations going into highrises like the Miami Metrorail.

 

[howl]

That's true. There are many ways to limit sound, but the reality is you're going to need some kind of a vertical barrier extending up from track level to block sound, whether it be opaque, translucent (tinted glass), or transparent (clear glass). That piercing screech of the metal wheels would be audible from a fair distance away if it was emanating from an open-air elevated station. I simply proposed the canopy/archway because if you're going to be putting up vertical soundproofing, you might as well cover the tracks to get snow and ice protection, as well as a bigger degree of climate control as well.

And yes you can build heated elevated stations, but open air stations are much harder to heat, for obvious reasons. At least with canopied tracks and a covered elevated station, heating would be much easier.

To a transportation engineer elevated lines are great. To an urban designer they are the worst possible solution.

 

[BurlOak]

To a transportation engineer elevated lines are great. To an urban designer they are the worst possible solution.

You may be right. We are spending $8B on this first phase of LRT, and there was very little thought put into actually transporting people. The urban designers also have enough power that they are able to prevent the public from seeing the options that most effectively move people - which is what the public wants. And the evidence is that there is no problem with elevated transit (see STC, the most popular part of the SRT to live next to, and Vancouver).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Okay BurlOak, how hasn't much thought been put into transporting people with the design of the ECLRT?

 

[ehlow]

You may be right. We are spending $8B on this first phase of LRT, and there was very little thought put into actually transporting people. The urban designers also have enough power that they are able to prevent the public from seeing the options that most effectively move people - which is what the public wants. And the evidence is that there is no problem with elevated transit (see STC, the most popular part of the SRT to live next to, and Vancouver).

No thought at all into moving people. The Eglinton LRT won't move anybody, since it's not fully grade separated! If it were elevated in the east it would move tons of people, but since it's at grade, it won't move anybody effectively. No one will ride it, they will just admire how pretty the LRVs look on the perfectly designed urban avenue with mid-rise and patios! It will glide gracefully by as people smile and nod from the organic coffee shop patios on a beautiful summers day shaded by big trees with the *ring ring* of bicycles swishing by on bike lanes, live jazz music playing in the background! Welcome to the disaster, the David Miller vision of St Clair-izing the city!

 

[EnviroTO]

No thought at all into moving people. The Eglinton LRT won't move anybody, since it's not fully grade separated! If it were elevated in the east it would move tons of people, but since it's at grade, it won't move anybody effectively. No one will ride it, they will just admire how pretty the LRVs look on the perfectly designed urban avenue with mid-rise and patios! It will glide gracefully by as people smile and nod from the organic coffee shop patios on a beautiful summers day shaded by big trees with the *ring ring* of bicycles swishing by on bike lanes, live jazz music playing in the background! Welcome to the disaster, the David Miller vision of St Clair-izing the city!

It is views like that which make the Crosstown LRT the most important project in the city. Not enough people in Toronto have been to Istanbul or Brussels or other places where LRT has played a critical part of moving people. So many Torontonians have the view that St.Clair or Spadina, or even worse Queen Street, is the same as what is being built on Eglinton when LRT is built at grade. They haven't been to places where LRT whizzes by traffic and has properly configured prioritized stoplights, because even on Queens Quay where there was stoplight priority it was timed too late to avoid the streetcar from stopping. If they get it right on Eglinton it has the potential to save Toronto billions and billions in the future and will free up money for more rapid transit coverage in the city.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I actually haven't seen anyone slam Eglinton. Sheppard East yes. I think Eglinton will be useful like you have said Enviro but to be honest it was time for another central east west route. I think LRT on eglinton will change minds though.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sheppard East is in design. We only know the route that it will take. I'm waiting to see the design of the line before making a judgement.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No thought at all into moving people. The Eglinton LRT won't move anybody, since it's not fully grade separated! If it were elevated in the east it would move tons of people, but since it's at grade, it won't move anybody effectively. No one will ride it, they will just admire how pretty the LRVs look on the perfectly designed urban avenue with mid-rise and patios! It will glide gracefully by as people smile and nod from the organic coffee shop patios on a beautiful summers day shaded by big trees with the *ring ring* of bicycles swishing by on bike lanes, live jazz music playing in the background! Welcome to the disaster, the David Miller vision of St Clair-izing the city!

A lefties dream