Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[micheal_can]

It sounded like you were defining a thing as a positive place. You can correct me if I’m wrong. If you were defining a thing as something that exists that’s totally different. In the case of does STC exist the answer is yes.

My definition of something being a thing is something being a good or important thing. So, with what little interactions I have had in the Scarborough area, my thinking was the STC is a thing. Since I have never actually lived there, I do not know for the locals whether it is or isn't.

 

[sche]

Also, source on the "slower than a bus" claim? Considering we have no LRT lines currently in operation in the city, this sounds again like cheap politicking. How on God's earth can an LRT in its own lane be slower than a bus that runs in mixed traffic? The very idea defies logic.

In theory it can, if the operational rules are twisted that way. If one sets a lower limit on LRT speed compared to the street / bus speed, plus requires it to stop-and-proceed at every switch / crossover, etc.

I am not saying that will happen. In fact I hope the common sense prevails and the LRT runs somewhat faster than the bus it replaces.

Can't wait for the Finch line to open, it will be a great opportunity to test the theories - and perhaps improve the operational practices if the Day 1 performance disappoints.

Waterloo has an LRT, and depending on the trip and time of day it can absolutely be slower or at least not faster than the #7 bus, which is a local bus making over 3x more stops and with much worse signal priority. I'm not even talking about Conestoga to Fairway or similar OD pairs where the LRT takes a much more indirect route, but OD pairs for which both take more or less the same route.

Some examples, taken from the current published timetables:
Central -> Waterloo Public Square (both the bus and LRT travel entirely along King St for this segment)
LRT: 7 minutes, regardless of time of day:
#7 bus: 7 minutes during early morning and evening, 8-9 minutes midday and peak

Borden -> Waterloo Public Square (this includes the segment through Downtown Kitchener)
LRT: 17 minutes
#7 bus: King/Ottawa to Waterloo Public Square (a slightly longer journey), 15-21 minutes depending on time of day

And this is the local bus! Before the Ion there was the limited stop #200 bus, making similar stops to the LRT today. I think it is pretty clear that the LRT did not deliver significant travel time improvements and definitely led to slower journeys in some cases.

Signal priority on the Ion is excellent, but there's slow speed limits, numerous sharp turns with even slower speed limits, slow acceleration, etc. I think speed limits need to be set faster on LRTs than the street to improve upon off-peak buses, because bus drivers often drive faster than the speed limit but LRT operations are a lot more strict (at least in Waterloo). LRVs also just accelerate and brake slower than buses.

 

[Bojaxs]

Assuming 2a or 2b were chosen, I have a novel thought on how Sheppard West should be handled.

I would have the Sheppard subway connect with the subway to Vaughan, but not as an interline, but to annex that stretch of Line 1 to become part of Line 4. You would have a Vaughan Centre to Scarborough (STC or McCowan) subway, and a Sheppard West to Union to Finch (ultimately Richmond Hill) subway.

This would create a one-stop ride across the north of the city, and the western leg of Line 1 would serve a relief function for the Yonge line. People from Vaughan (or as importantly importantly, York U) would in many ways have greater convenience because they would have no shortage of transfer points to get south, at Barrie Go line, Sheppard West, Yonge, Oriole, etc. depending on where they were heading.

Would much rather see the Sheppard line extended west to the western side of Downsview with a connection to a hypothetical Bolton GO line. From there, down to North Etobicoke GO to connect with the Kitchener line.

 

[Aplus23]

Once the Ontario line is completed and this Sheppard line is completed, then we would almost be done everything I envision for Train/Team transit in Toronto.
The last major project would be extending the eastern part of Ontario line north to Don Mills or beyond, & the western part of the Ontario line north west somewhere.

I'm also in favor of the Waterfront LRT or extension & the EELRT

Damn shame the relief line or extending Sheppard wasn't done sooner

 

[Bojaxs]

Once the Ontario line is completed and this Sheppard line is completed, then we would almost be done everything I envision for Train/Team transit in Toronto.
The last major project would be extending the eastern part of Ontario line north to Don Mills or beyond, & the western part of the Ontario line north west somewhere.

I'm also in favor of the Waterfront LRT or extension & the EELRT

Damn shame the relief line or extending Sheppard wasn't done sooner

I would be more in favour of extending the western portion of the Ontario line to Park Lawn, near Mimico. Then construct the Jane line to connect the Ontario line with the Sheppard line.

 

[Markster]

The third consultation was yesterday evening, near Don Mills subway station.
Anyone go? We gotta get a look at those voting boards!

I imagine 2B will have a decent showing at that open house.

 

[mikey7767]

The third consultation was yesterday evening, near Don Mills subway station.
Anyone go? We gotta get a look at those voting boards!

I imagine 2B will have a decent showing at that open house.

2B was the one most people chose there.

 

[mikey7767]

One standalone LRT line with dubious chances for getting built, supported by a cash strapped city that may not even have the resources to build it is hardly comparable to a gigantic entity like Metrolinx pushing subways everywhere, don't you think?

When the discussion is about supporting LRT over subways, where are the politicians showing their support for extending Sheppard or North Yonge as an LRT? There is no proposed subway alternative to EELRT, so that doesn't count.

Also, source on the "slower than a bus" claim? Considering we have no LRT lines currently in operation in the city, this sounds again like cheap politicking. How on God's earth can an LRT in its own lane be slower than a bus that runs in mixed traffic? The very idea defies logic.

@T3G Page 27 of the business case does a side by side comparison of the LRT vs current bus lanes that already exist and it shows that they project that the travel times would be similar. Page 29 acknowledges that the overall travel times are modelled to be slower on the LRT compared to the current arrangement, because the buses currently run on their own lane. The LRT signals would slow the LRT down even more (imo) but the overall travel times will be slower. And throughout the business case, it is mentioned several times that the travel times on Eglinton and also Morningside would be worse. Which is why I am against this project. And why I'd rather just have bus lanes. Because the bus lanes have the same travel time benefits if not slightly more, but don't come at a $4.6 Billion cost that is likely to significantly go up.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-226595.pdf

The above is the link to the business case that I'm referring to.

 

[ARG1]

Haadhi from More Transit Southern Ontario recently had the opportunity to talk to the project staff and get further clarifications on certain details of the project. Here's what he got:


Purpose of This Consultation: The purpose of this consultation and the upcoming business case is to get a feel for “what the Sheppard Subway is” in terms of alignment and some basic details regarding stations. Everything else like where the line will be elevated, etc. will be decided after.
Agincourt GO Connection: Project staff think the connection to Agincourt is more important than serving Kennedy Road, one option staff are thinking of are having the east end of the platform near Agincourt GO to try to serve both Agincourt GO and Kennedy Road.
Getting From Agincourt to Scarborough Centre: As of right now they don't know what alignment the line would take to do it.
Construction Type: Planners are seriously considering having cut and cover as well as elevated construction.
Yards: There is not enough yard space to serve trains needed for this extension, staff are unsure of how to exactly solve this problem at the moment.
Scarborough Centre Station: Staff unsure if underpinning work would be needed, I suggested that an elevated station would be best since none of that difficult work would be needed.
Platform Length: It seems planning staff are thinking to design stations for 6 car trains, however we aren’t that far in the project yet.
Additional Stations: Not sure where additional stations would go, that’s the point of this phase of the consultation
Downsview Airport Development: Currently, serving the downsview airport development isn’t within the scope of the project. This is a problem because extending to downsview as part of this project, instead of a future phase would allow for cheap cut and cover/elevated construction on the empty site, as well as have the transit connections before the development happens. It would also allow for a connection to the Barrie line as part of the original phase.

 

[canarob]

Agincourt GO Connection: Project staff think the connection to Agincourt is more important than serving Kennedy Road, one option staff are thinking of are having the east end of the platform near Agincourt GO to try to serve both Agincourt GO and Kennedy Road.

It is more important in terms of riders, no? Buses along Kennedy can't really compete with the future frequent GO service.

 

[micheal_can]

Agincourt GO Connection: Project staff think the connection to Agincourt is more important than serving Kennedy Road, one option staff are thinking of are having the east end of the platform near Agincourt GO to try to serve both Agincourt GO and Kennedy Road.

This is very important. GO RER has the possibility of transforming the transportation in the GTA. Connecting the stations to the various subways will make for better mobility of riders.

Construction Type: Planners are seriously considering having cut and cover as well as elevated construction.

Cut and cover will make for worse traffic during construction

Yards: There is not enough yard space to serve trains needed for this extension, staff are unsure of how to exactly solve this problem at the moment.

This will be a key thing to figure out.

Platform Length: It seems planning staff are thinking to design stations for 6 car trains, however we aren’t that far in the project yet.

Does this include knock out sections for longer trains?

Downsview Airport Development: Currently, serving the downsview airport development isn’t within the scope of the project. This is a problem because extending to downsview as part of this project, instead of a future phase would allow for cheap cut and cover/elevated construction on the empty site, as well as have the transit connections before the development happens. It would also allow for a connection to the Barrie line as part of the original phase.

Cut and cover may limit buildings that can be built on top of the line if it is not in the middle of an existing roadway.

 

[T3G]

Cut and cover will make for worse traffic during construction

Who cares, if it's cheaper?

 

[micheal_can]

Who cares, if it's cheaper?

Cheaper does not make it better.

 

[Aplus23]

I guess the plan was to bring it to STC all along then. I'm okay with that if the proposed EELRT gets extended to Agincourt.

They definitely should make the STC stop elevated.

Definitely do cut & cover, the roads will be a mess regardless.

 

[T3G]

Cheaper does not make it better.

So to clarify... you want a deep bore tunnel line? For what possible reason, other than to avoid a temporary disruption to traffic? That doesn't seem like a compelling reason to spend even more money. Are our cut and cover lines somehow incapable of doing the job asked of them? Are New York's? You have to at some point be pragmatic and accept a scaled back version of the project that doesn't completely break the bank.

If we are deep boring suburban extensions, we might as well go all the way and line the tunnels with gold. After all, in Ford Nation land, money is an infinite resource.