Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Northern Light]

Indeed!

And nothing stopping them completely changing their mind later. Recall the Green line in Montreal. Everyone keeps talking about Lionel-Groulx (the first station past Atwater) being so great.

But that was never the plan. Originally it was built on the assumption going to keep going west towards NDG. And then, they end up looping it 180 degrees to run east through Lionel Groulx, and then turn west again, in a big S-bend, actually going so far west, that it passes directly underneath Westmount High School.

On paper it looks like a horrific detour. But living there, it's not a big deal. And it works. Someone posted this above, but here it is again. Pretend you are a Montrealer, and west is actually southwest.

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I get your example; and you're not wrong insofar as Mike Harris filled in the tail tracks (tunnel) of a nascent Eglinton subway. Nothing is irrevocable that doesn't defy the laws of Physics.....or such.......

But........the SSE Station has already had the tunnel boring Machine pass through...........its not conceptual.......so barring one hell of reversal......

 

[nfitz]

I get your example; and you're not wrong insofar as Mike Harris filled in the tail tracks (tunnel) of a nascent Eglinton subway. Nothing is irrevocable that doesn't defy the laws of Physics.....or such.......

But........the SSE Station has already had the tunnel boring Machine pass through...........its not conceptual.......so barring one hell of reversal......

SSE is done like dinner. I was thinking north of Sheppard East station - or beyond any existing terminus.

(I don't advocate this), but you could take Line 4 to Agincourt/Kennedy, curve it south to Scarborough Centre, curve it back north to McCowan East/Sheppard. curve it back south to Centennial, curve it back north to Malvern Town Centre via Nielsen/Sheppard, curve it back south to UT Scarborough, and back north again to the zoo. And most riders would be very happy, and really wouldn't care how windy it is.

 

[Coolibop]

Ok with all this subways to Pickering talk in the several posts (in pages) above, I think you are getting confused, perhaps by our Premiers' comments:

"We're going to focus on being the most modern transit system in the world. We're going to build rapid underground transit that's going to extend, not only in Toronto, but we're the first government that's going to run a regional transportation system. So folks in Pickering eventually will be able to hop on a subway and get to downtown Toronto. People of Markham and the outlying areas, over time, will be on a subway, to make sure that we get traffic moving."

I'm pretty certain Doug was talking about the GO expansion project (mentions downtown Toronto) which had language talking about converting the regional system to a quicker more subway-like system...There is no data to support a subway (in the traditional, TTC Line 4 style) for Durham region.

If we are talking connections (to Durham region and) to line 4, let's talk about the DSBRT which is already funded in Durham, and will be built out over the next decade (yes. 10+ years to build a BRT...see how slow Durham is growing in comparison to Scarborough?). Currently, Pickering is serviced by Go busses (about 20 minutes to Scarborough centre and points between including UTSC, Centennial) and DRT which is about 30 minutes with closed door policy operating in Scarborough along Ellesmere (route 900) and Sheppard/Milner/Progress (route 920), and of course the train servicing destinations in the south.

 

[JSF-1]

Now I will also concede that I suppose it's possible the subway could be diverted to serve these places, but considering the proposed plan to extend as far east as Meadowvale, and none to serve these spots, I assume that was not on the table.

Why would we even want to extend the subway to Meadowvale? Sure you can make arguments for stops at places like Markham Road and Malvern but there is nothing at Meadowvale and Sheppard. The Zoo isn't as big a trip generator as some people would think and any ridership it does generate would be highly seasonal. As well the Zoo entrance is about 1.6km from Sheppard Avenue so not exactly a walk most people would like to make. By that logic we could extend Line 1 to Wonderland and even then I would bet it would generate more seasonal riders than a stop near the Zoo. Ideally if Line 4 was to ever make it east of McCowan you would want to hit places like Centennial or UTSC which would be better accomplished by an Ellesmere alignment; but this would also mean serving Malvern with the EELRT.

 

[Bojaxs]

The Keele stop wouldn't be on the Barrie line like it appears on my image. It would be right on the corner of Sheppard & Keele. From Rivalda, maybe Etobicoke North GO station?

 

[JSF-1]

If were were to extend the line further east from McCowan and Sheppard this is a possible alignment although I am unsure of the portal south of the 401 since it while there is land there I am not sure about the gradients involved. If possible it would be similar to how the Ontario Line comes out over the Don Valley, but in this case it is the Morningside Ravine. There is also the consideration of train technology since Line 4 uses the heavier TR's which means means they need a gentler gradient between underground and elevated compared to the lighter Ontario Line trains.

 

[Rainforest]

The subway extensions to Vaughan and Richmond Hill are dumb, but going to Pickering would be much dumber, because the city doesn't even form a continuous urban area with Toronto and to get the subway there it would have to pass through Rouge Park. So the question becomes, do you spoil the natural beauty of Rouge Park with some ugly concrete viaduct because Ford Nation failed to understand what the point of a subway is, or send it south around Rouge Hill GO and give this deeply dense street a full scale subway?

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Then of course is the fact that there is basically nothing along Sheppard Avenue that would require a subway connection to Pickering. The handful of strip malls and plazas are not exactly trip generators,.

Indeed, there aren't many local destinations or density there to fill the subway with riders. Certainly not north of the 401.

However, there would be some benefit in connecting the east end of Sheppard subway to the Lakeshore East GO line. That would create the possibilities of transit trips between the towns along Lakeshore East and the points in North Scarborough and North York, without the need to go all the way to Union and transfer there.

My fantasy-mappish route would be: a station at McCowan & Sheppard, then at Centennial College (north of the campus, right next to the 401). And then, an extension in the 401 corridor (surface / elevated, no tunneling) all the way to the Port Union Rd interchange, with a minimal number of stations to further reduce the cost. Perhaps just one station in between, at Morningside & 401, connecting to the bus and LRT routes serving UTSC. After the Port Union Rd interchange, either a tunnel to Rouge Hill GO station, or continuing in the 401 corridor to Pickering GO.

 

[Bojaxs]

However, there would be some benefit in connecting the east end of Sheppard subway to the Lakeshore East GO line. That would create the possibilities of transit trips between the towns along Lakeshore East and the points in North Scarborough and North York, without the need to go all the way to Union and transfer there.

As I said earlier in this thread, all we need is for Stouffville trains to stop at Scarborough GO.

 

[Rainforest]

As I said earlier in this thread, all we need is for Stouffville trains to stop at Scarborough GO.

That's a possibility. But, requires much more frequent Stouffville line service to be practical for that kind of trips.

If the Stouffville trains run every 10 min or better, then sure, take LSE to Scarborough GO, then a Stouffville train north to Agincourt, then the Sheppard subway either west or east.

 

[Bojaxs]

That's a possibility. But, requires much more frequent Stouffville line service to be practical for that kind of trips.

If the Stouffville trains run every 10 min or better, then sure, take LSE to Scarborough GO, then a Stouffville train north to Agincourt, then the Sheppard subway either west or east.

The Stouffville line is getting twinned. Frequency will improve once completed.

 

[81-717]

By that logic we could extend Line 1 to Wonderland

I support that, it would be a logical destination for line 1.

As a side note, jesus christ this thread is going off like crazy, never before have I been away for only a few hours only to discover 5 FRIGGIN' PAGES of unread posts upon coming back!

 

[kEiThZ]

I am not saying that it must happen. In fact I do find it silly that the subways keep getting extended when GO RER is what is likely a bigger need. However, the fact that it is easier to dig tunnels than to make GO RER happen is the bigger problem than needs to be fixed.

You are still talking as though RER is not under construction right now. You know that $12B transit projects, take a few years right? But RER is due to mostly be in service by 2032. That is looking to be about the same timeline as the Ontario Line, Yonge North and possibly even Scarborough Subway. To act like RER is not advancing at the same rate as subways is ignorant. And next, the idea that changing over an existing system to almost a completely different system (while running service) should be simpler than building tunnels is another level of ignorance.

I like how you assumed I did not know of them.
Did you know they used to go throughout York Region more than they do now?

So you know about them and still insist that only multi-billion dollar subways can facilitate regional travel?

This is what I really mean when I say fare integration. Others may have other definitions, but mine is that the fare should be the same regardless of the transit agency you use. The whole GTHA should be set up as a giant fare zone system.

I guess I missed it.

It's hard to be aware of major changes like fare integration when you don't live in the GTA and only visit 2-3x per year by car (as per your own admission).

 

[kEiThZ]

there would be some benefit in connecting the east end of Sheppard subway to the Lakeshore East GO line. That would create the possibilities of transit trips between the towns along Lakeshore East and the points in North Scarborough and North York, without the need to go all the way to Union and transfer there.

You're not wrong. But I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. It's 7 km of subway from the end of Port Union to McCowan via Sheppard. That's a lot. And Rouge Hill GO isn't even at the end of Port Union. So either a complicated approach to the station or a relocation of Rouge Hill GO. That's a lot of work for probably somewhat limited demand. Feel like those subway dollars would be better spent on a Line 2 West extension to Sherway or Square One.

 

[turini2]

Given the timeframe of the Downsview developments, I could easily see it becoming a cheap and easy construction staging area for the western section.

Furthermore, extending Wilson Yard is definitely the cheapest yard option for the extension - I think I'd prefer a cut and cover construction allowing future developable land on top.

 

[dowlingm]

Furthermore, extending Wilson Yard is definitely the cheapest yard option for the extension - I think I'd prefer a cut and cover construction allowing future developable land on top.

A concern I would have is that such an expansion would be linked but as much as possible not dependent - that an incident at the Line 1 yard side would not freeze Line 4 yard trains from departing into service.