Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Leo_Chan]

Sorry, yep, I meant Don Mills. I'm not *that* crazy.

Sheppard West to Bayview makes sense because that means a chance for Willowdale Station.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't see the point of extending it out that far. There's nothing there, very little in terms of density and no trip generators. If you're bothering to go east of MCC you might as well commit and extend it all the way down to Rouge Hill to connect with the GO train.

The point of going to Morningside is network completion. It's not necessarily just immediate ridership. There's value in connecting EELRT to the Sheppard subway. How much is definitely debatable. Arguing that it should go to Rouge Hill is nuts. That's still 7 km away (along Sheppard and Port Union). By comparison, McCowan to Morningside is 5 km.

The "nothing" being there at Morningside-Sheppard is a positive. Not a negative. In a city starved for housing, having commercial space that can be substantially redeveloped is actually valuable.

Incidentally, speaking of cross-regional travel, this is one of the biggest areas of failure for the TTC subway in my opinion. I really wish we had copied NYC and instituted a 4 track express/local set up from the get go. It would have been a help on Yonge, a help on Bloor, and especially on these suburban subway extensions. This set up IMO is the worst of all worlds; you have all the discomfort of a TTC subway, but the stop spacing of a cross regional service that does SFA for the local community. If I was one of the poor schmucks who live in the transit wastelands between stops I would not be remotely convinced that this instead of the LRT was a better option.

The subway is inappropriate for regional travel. Making it 4 track doesn't improve things that much. What improves regional travel is actually making GO useful for regional travel. I suspect RER will change the way we think about regional travel. And the subway will become a lot more focused on trips inside a borough or just to the neighbouring borough. Also, 4 tracks subways would have been so much more expensive to build that we probably would have ended up with a network that was 20-30% smaller.

 

[nfitz]

The one thing I'll say in favour of STC is the fact that its the terminus of the DSBRT, and extending Line 4 there would mean being able to continue directly westward without having to divert 1 stop on Line 2.

Why extend the DSBRT westward? Is there enough demand? And where ... back down to Ellesmere? Or shoot along the 401 to Yonge?

 

[ARG1]

Why extend the DSBRT westward? Is there enough demand? And where ... back down to Ellesmere? Or shoot along the 401 to Yonge?

No I mean, if you're travelling from Durham to STC, you can just transfer there to get on Line 4 and continue west, rather than having to travel 1 stop on Line 2 to do so.

 

[alweky]

Then i question whats the point of the sheppard station on the line 2 extension. isnt the whole point of it that you can transfer between 2 and 4?

I don't think the extension of line 2 had the line 4 extension in mind. It's main purpose from what I can see is that it will provide access to the subway north of the 401 on Mccowan. I have also heard that some bus routes will be re-routed to this station as well.

 

[kEiThZ]

The one thing I'll say in favour of STC is the fact that its the terminus of the DSBRT, and extending Line 4 there would mean being able to continue directly westward without having to divert 1 stop on Line 2.

However I'm not sure if that alone exceeds the value of... everything else.

I just don't see DSBRT as that significant. Especially in a world of RER, EELRT and Line 4 in Scarborough. But if it really is a deal, DSBRT is a bus service. Just add McCowan station to the route.

 

[micheal_can]

The problem I have seen is that a lot of transit construction is not future proofed.Things get built without thinking about10, 20, 50+ years in the future.

So, instead if just looking at the needs of today, lets ask how can we serve the needs of today while envisioning the future needs and ensuring this construction is set to meet those needs when they cone, even if it isn't for another 50 years.

So, if we look at the future of line 2 and 4, in 50 years, where might they end up?
Which of their plans best match that?
Which of the plans doesn't match that?

 

[Cobra]

2A for me

1. Bus routes north of the 401 wouldn't need to cross the highway to STC by ending their routes at McCowan - less bus traffic
2. Denser Sheppard & MCCowan area
3. Opportunity to build an interchange station at McCowan like Montreal's Snowdon & Lionel-Groulx station allowing future extensions north and east if necessary

 

[micheal_can]

2A for me

1. Bus routes north of the 401 wouldn't need to cross the highway to STC by ending their routes at McCowan - less bus traffic
2. Denser Sheppard & MCCowan area
3. Opportunity to build an interchange station at McCowan like Montreal's Snowdon & Lionel-Groulx station allowing future extensions north and east if necessary

View attachment 573413

I thought the McCowan station will run north/south. My assumption is the line 4 station would run east/west.

 

[Cobra]

I thought the McCowan station will run north/south. My assumption is the line 4 station would run east/west.

Like they did in Montreal, line 4 could turn to meet the north-south box. No one would argue today that the detour wasn't worth it when you see how easy it is to transfer from one line to the other

 

[JSF-1]

The problem I have seen is that a lot of transit construction is not future proofed.Things get built without thinking about10, 20, 50+ years in the future.

So, instead if just looking at the needs of today, lets ask how can we serve the needs of today while envisioning the future needs and ensuring this construction is set to meet those needs when they cone, even if it isn't for another 50 years.

So, if we look at the future of line 2 and 4, in 50 years, where might they end up?
Which of their plans best match that?
Which of the plans doesn't match that?

Well one of the questions would be does the Province have any long term ambition of extending the line into Pickering. If the answer is yes than option 2B would be better since it has a more direct route via Ellesmere and Kingston Road as well as hitting UTSC along the way. Option 2A would mean either routing the line south to Ellesmere from Sheppard or fighting with the feds and lord knows how many environmental groups to build the line through the Rouge. Now if there are no thoughts of one day bringing the line to Pickering than this discussion is moot.

 

[mossynukes]

The way I see it 2A kinda screws over North Scarborough and Markham for subway access to only improve regional travel marginally. This has the feel of the LRT vs subway debate all over again where a bunch of people who don't live in the area are prioritizing goals other than local benefits.

That is quite interesting, but I completely disagree, Someone who lives in markham or northern scarborugh (myself included) would probably be more screwed over from 2b, since they would have to make an additional transfer on line 2 to get on line 4. For instance if I lived on Mccowan and finch , and I had to go to go work at NYC or Fairview Mall, I would have to take the bus to Sheppard McCowan, and ride one stop to STC, and then transfer to line 4 as opposed to taking the bus and immediatley transfering to Line 4 at sheppard McCowan. Lkewise, If I lived on Morningside and sheppard, and I wanted to take Line 4, I would have to transfer at Sheppard and McCowan, then ride one Stop to STC, and then transfer again to get back on sheppard on Line 4. This one stop on Line 2 just to get on the sheppard line will affect commuters who board routes that will terminate at Sheppard McCowan, Including YRT's future routes

 

[kEiThZ]

Apologies! I meant 2B in that post! Fixed.

And I agree. 2B does screw over North Scarborough.

 

[Cobra]

That is quite interesting, but I completely disagree, Someone who lives in markham or northern scarborugh (myself included) would probably be more screwed over from 2b, since they would have to make an additional transfer on line 2 to get on line 4. For instance if I lived on Mccowan and finch , and I had to go to go work at NYC or Fairview Mall, I would have to take the bus to Sheppard McCowan, and ride one stop to STC, and then transfer to line 4 as opposed to taking the bus and immediatley transfering to Line 4 at sheppard McCowan. Lkewise, If I lived on Morningside and sheppard, and I wanted to take Line 4, I would have to transfer at Sheppard and McCowan, then ride one Stop to STC, and then transfer again to get back on sheppard on Line 4. This one stop on Line 2 just to get on the sheppard line will affect commuters who board routes that will terminate at Sheppard McCowan, Including YRT's future routes

People prefers transfers at a subway station rather than on the street at a bus stop - that's what 2B does as you pointed out for a lot of people north of the 401

 

[micheal_can]

Like they did in Montreal, line 4 could turn to meet the north-south box. No one would argue today that the detour wasn't worth it when you see how easy it is to transfer from one line to the other
View attachment 573427

Would the costs associated of curving the tunnel be worth the savings?

Well one of the questions would be does the Province have any long term ambition of extending the line into Pickering. If the answer is yes than option 2B would be better since it has a more direct route via Ellesmere and Kingston Road as well as hitting UTSC along the way. Option 2A would mean either routing the line south to Ellesmere from Sheppard or fighting with the feds and lord knows how many environmental groups to build the line through the Rouge. Now if there are no thoughts of one day bringing the line to Pickering than this discussion is moot.

In the 1960s, did they have plans to extend line 1 to Vaughan? Likely not. However, they did not have it go to places that an extension would be tough to do.
For this line, anything that prevents the EELRT heading west after crossing the 401 would stop the future proofing.