Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I would argue the person who “screwed up” is the one who pointed the Bloor Danforth line station and tail tracks east rather than north east. Where else could Metrolinx’ tunnel be positioned other than beyond those?

the transportation landscape in the S-word will be quite different from when EELRT was modelled, with more service on the Stouffville line, the Line 2 extension, even the SRT busway. It may make more sense to route an LRT along Lawrence, and keep going to Don Mills and meet an extended Ontario line, but if Sheppard extension gets shovels in the ground and with service ramp up on LSE, S-worders south of 401 will find a case for rail harder when frequent buses are heading for two subway lines and two frequent service GO lines

The plan probably was to have a station at Eglinton Kingston. MX probably could have chosen the SRT corridor or Brimley—water under the bridge. Even if the tunnel weren't there, the transfer at Kennedy would happen. I agree with the rest of your post—especially the part about the subway. However, BRT must be implemented if the EELRT is cancelled.

 

[Northern Light]

The changing transportation landscape actually helps with EELRT's case significantly. While Initially conceived as a way to get people coming from the west to UTSC, it actually serves a far more strategic purpose now. The UTSC route for those coming from the west is more comfortably served by Line 2, and DSBRT.

I would argue that the most cost-effective shorter term action would be to infill an Eglinton-Brimley station on the SSE to which Eglinton East buses would be routed. This would shave ~1.5km off the current trip, skip traffic lights at Midland and Brimley, and maybe Danforth too depending on how you orient the at-grade station/terminal; and would easily shave 4M+ off the current route. All for ~250M; a far cry from 4.4B ++

*****

In the longer term, I think a Line 4 extension from McCowan to Markham, which then goes south to Centennial's progress campus, and then west to Neilson, where a single, straight, short bus (or LRT) run can connect the line to Malvern to the north and Scarborough Centenary Hospital to the south, and then on to UTSC.

Its a ~6km subway extension, with 4 stations. should be able to come in for about 8B (today's money) add Neilson LRT (if so desired) with ~4km length and you 're al in for maybe 10B Just over double what the EELRT is budgeted for; but with, I would argue, a vastly better pay off.

 

[adys123]

I would argue that the most cost-effective shorter term action would be to infill an Eglinton-Brimley station on the SSE to which Eglinton East buses would be routed. This would shave ~1.5km off the current trip, skip traffic lights at Midland and Brimley, and maybe Danforth too depending on how you orient the at-grade station/terminal; and would easily shave 4M+ off the current route. All for ~250M; a far cry from 4.4B ++

*****

In the longer term, I think a Line 4 extension from McCowan to Markham, which then goes south to Centennial's progress campus, and then west to Neilson, where a single, straight, short bus (or LRT) run can connect the line to Malvern to the north and Scarborough Centenary Hospital to the south, and then on to UTSC.

Its a ~6km subway extension, with 4 stations. should be able to come in for about 8B (today's money) add Neilson LRT (if so desired) with ~4km length and you 're al in for maybe 10B Just over double what the EELRT is budgeted for; but with, I would argue, a vastly better pay off.

The demand for the educational institutions (UTS) is slightly overstated here, at least not until their revitalization plan starts taking shape.

 

[Northern Light]

The demand for the educational institutions (UTS) is slightly overstated here, at least not until their revitalization plan starts taking shape.

UTSC is growing quickly, but I digress; my plan also better serves Scarborough Centenary, another major trip generator; one could argue for the Neilson station being positioned further south, at the hospital; I think it also does a better job of moving people East-West.

If the desire is to go directly downtown from the Kingston/Morningisde area or points east, GO's Lakeshore corridor is better choice.

 

[mikey7767]

Sheppard west extension makes sense however Scarborough needs to prioritize the Eglinton east LRT extension over a Sheppard east subway extension. People in Scarborough need a way to move around inside Scarborough, the LRT will help do that. The Sheppard east subway extension would probably end up as a three or four stop extension at best to justify its cost. Not worth it.

The Eglinton East LRT does not even need to be built. A fancy, slow, and very very expensive streetcar? No thanks. It would be slower than a bus according to the city's own analysis. People have a way to get around Scarborough. It's called, a bus on it's dedicated lane. How would an LRT be faster or more reliable or better in any other way? And how can you justify spending about 5 Billion on a non-grade-separated streetcar that stops at red lights and has stops like every 400m away, especially when we have a housing crisis, a refugee crisis, a budget crisis, etc. It would be throwing money away on junk and ignoring actual pressing needs that we have (which to be fair, we aren't doing a good job at anyways).

The subway would actually connect north Toronto to the rest of the subway line, make commuting more reliable, and faster, and improve the quality of life of commuters who are currently stuck in slow buses. An LRT on Eglinton would only help with capacity, which can easily be solved by adding more buses as it already has it's dedicated lane.

 

[dowlingm]

I would argue that the most cost-effective shorter term action would be to infill an Eglinton-Brimley station on the SSE to which Eglinton East buses would be routed. This would shave ~1.5km off the current trip, skip traffic lights at Midland and Brimley, and maybe Danforth too depending on how you orient the at-grade station/terminal; and would easily shave 4M+ off the current route. All for ~250M; a far cry from 4.4B ++

Is there a rough in for a station at that point, as was done for North York Centre. I had assumed that sort of thing had fallen to the value engineering red pen

 

[mikey7767]

LRT’s are faster than busses because they have a dedicated right of way with fewer stops. I also like subways but don’t see a subway coming to UTSC in my lifetime..

You clearly haven't looked into the EELRT. It has two or three more stops than the current 986 route, and the 986 already has it's own right of way. And the city's own analysis has indicated it would be something like three minutes slower than the current RapidTO bus lane. So no, it's a crappy plan.

 

[Northern Light]

Is there a rough in for a station at that point, as was done for North York Centre. I had assumed that sort of thing had fallen to the value engineering red pen

I'm not aware of any rough-in; but others could better speak to that than I.

 

[APTA-2048]

Hey, let's not get into that kind of thing.

West Enders were content with an LRT but a certain doofus resident made the decision. We will gladly send him to live in Scarborough if people out there want him.

Why does any discussion of transit in Scarborough devolve into bad arguments and mud slinging? Scarberians have the Line 2 extension and likely the Sheppard line extension, so they have been shown the money. Now can we get back to the merits of what is needed most?

- Paul

The guy you’re replying to just makes shitpost after shitpost. It’s not serious discussion. Best to ignore. You won’t get a genuine reply.

 

[NoahB]

Again, this is to say cancel the current project; that change is not a tweak; its a complete re-think.

It would be more expensive than you think; if only because of the bridge over Highland Creek, and the tunnel out of Kennedy..........but I digress.

It doesn't fundamentally address the problem of a poor route.

There are so many projects for which a better case can be made from Milton GO to Line 2 west to 'East Mall'; to Sheppard, to Eglinton West to Pearson.....

I just don't see this as a priority at all. There is, again, a need to serve this market; but I just think the concept doesn't pass muster and the idea should be shelved until we have something more worthwhile to evaluate.

An Ontario Line-style revamp by Metrolinx is what I hope for. But I guess that is fantasy map territory.

 

[mikey7767]

If I were Premier, these would be my next top priority projects in this order:

1. Line 4 East Extension to McCowan and Sheppard
2. Line 4 West Extension to Downsview Park Stn
3. Line 5 Extension to the Airport
4. Hurontario LRT Extension to Brampton GO Station

Anyone have any thoughts? I figured, this is a transit forum, so might as well have some fun with it and I'm curious to know what you guys think.

I also hope one day that we see a Line 2 Extension to Sherway. Though, in this political landscape, I doubt we will ever see this.

 

[Haydenpoon]

If I were Premier, these would be my next top priority projects in this order:

1. Line 4 East Extension to McCowan and Sheppard
2. Line 4 West Extension to Downsview Park Stn
3. Line 5 Extension to the Airport
4. Hurontario LRT Extension to Brampton GO Station

Anyone have any thoughts? I figured, this is a transit forum, so might as well have some fun with it and I'm curious to know what you guys think.

I also hope one day that we see a Line 2 Extension to Sherway. Though, in this political landscape, I doubt we will ever see this.

I think Line 5 Extension to the Airport could be further down the list.

1. Line 5 + UP Express to Pearson will probably be faster for riders east of Mount Dennis.
2. Riders from Mississauga would prefer their existing one-seat ride to Pearson.

Line 5 Extension to the Airport will mostly serve riders travelling locally from Pearson to stations west of Mount Dennis + those who have a lot of luggage and prefer a longer one-seat ride.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

If I were Premier, these would be my next top priority projects in this order:

1. Line 4 East Extension to McCowan and Sheppard
2. Line 4 West Extension to Downsview Park Stn
3. Line 5 Extension to the Airport
4. Hurontario LRT Extension to Brampton GO Station

Anyone have any thoughts? I figured, this is a transit forum, so might as well have some fun with it and I'm curious to know what you guys think.

I also hope one day that we see a Line 2 Extension to Sherway. Though, in this political landscape, I doubt we will ever see this.

I'd cancel all LRT projects in favour of redirecting those funds to either: Longer Sheppard extensions or Ontario Line extensions or a midtown GO line.

I think we need to move our focus away from LRT's (except where it is low hanging fruit, like upgrading streetcar ROW's) and towards higher-order investments.

The cost of building traffic-burdened LRT systems in Toronto is so insanely high that we might as well abandon these projects until Metrolinx can figure out how to bring costs within a reasonable margin of similar tram projects in Europe.


We should not be building trams that cost more than a new subway line in Paris.

 

[JSF-1]

I'd cancel all LRT projects in favour of redirecting those funds to either: Longer Sheppard extensions or Ontario Line extensions or a midtown GO line.

I think we need to move our focus away from LRT's (except where it is low hanging fruit, like upgrading streetcar ROW's) and towards higher-order investments.

The cost of building traffic-burdened LRT systems in Toronto is so insanely high that we might as well abandon these projects until Metrolinx can figure out how to bring costs within a reasonable margin of similar tram projects in Europe.


We should not be building trams that cost more than an entire new subway line in Paris.




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The problem with this is that subway construction in Toronto is even more expensive than LRT construction so a policy of all or nothing on Subways is a policy of "Pay More, Get Less". It's not LRT construction costs that need to be brought down, its subway construction costs that have to come down. We have been fighting this battle since the 70's when the Etobicoke and Scarborough RT's were planned as LRT's because the cost of subway construction was ballooning out of control even back than. It's also what spurred the province to invest in the ICTS trains back in the day because they saw the growing need for transit in Ontario but didn't want to foot the bill for expensive subways; and now the Ontario Line is a light-metro and not a heavy-metro for the same reason.

 

[Voltz]

I'd cancel all LRT projects in favour of redirecting those funds to either: Longer Sheppard extensions or Ontario Line extensions or a midtown GO line.

I think we need to move our focus away from LRT's (except where it is low hanging fruit, like upgrading streetcar ROW's) and towards higher-order investments.

The cost of building traffic-burdened LRT systems in Toronto is so insanely high that we might as well abandon these projects until Metrolinx can figure out how to bring costs within a reasonable margin of similar tram projects in Europe.


We should not be building trams that cost more than a new subway line in Paris.




View attachment 534536

Does that figure for Finch include 30 years of maintenance and operations?

I was also not aware that transit vehicles in their own lanes are burdened by traffic.

But regarding this thread, in the decades that politicians have been pandering with Sheppard Subway promises, has there ever been any kind of study or analysis that indicates ridership will require a subway?